King Sewing Machine Company - Models & Mysteries

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babelglyph

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Posts: 207

Posted 1689478521 · Edited	Reply with quote #1

This thread is a place to collect and store information about the various models of sewing machine manufactured in the King Sewing Machine Company factory located in Buffalo, NY. This includes machines openly marketed under the King company name, as well as machines labeled for other vendors like Sears or with alternate brand names like Domestic (after 1915) or White (after 1925/1926). I am interested in collecting info for things manufactured at this factory because they tend to be more similar to each other than to other machines made elsewhere under the Domestic/White/etc. brands. I can't start this thread without acknowledging and wholeheartedly recommending Kelly Pakes's fantastic, well-researched overview of the history of the King corporation, especially as it ties in to Domestic: https://www.kelsew.info/domestic/KingDomesticSears.html The very short version is: The King Sewing Machine Company was started in 1906 by business-minded men with goals to produce sewing machines with refined machining processes. They began manufacturing and marketing a single model of machine by 1908 -- based on the Singer 27. (Heavily, heavily based on the Singer 27 - it's pretty much a clone.) They marketed those machines directly to the public instead of through dealers. After a couple years, they expanded their factory with backing from Sears Roebuck & Co. in 1910 and began producing machines for Sears by 1911. Their first machine - the Franklin - is more or less identical to the first King model. They also probably produced the Minnesota after Davis -- the King-made machines are the "New Model A" versions. (These have long been attributed to "Domestic" -- but the dates and info don't line up. See this recent thread with strong evidence that King was always the manufacturer. After that, there are models made in the Buffalo factory and marketed as Lessing, New Willard, Domestic, and possibly a few others. I am going to put what I've got into this thread -- please share more about your machines or machines/authenticated info that you have seen in the wild. Any info is appreciated! Known Models - type designations are working names and not anything official...gladly taking suggestions on what else they should be. (especially if names exist and I just don't know about it.) To try and aid transparency, I will refer to the "King factory", "King company", "King model," and "King decals" as such. The King Model is the original 27 clone - looks like a Singer 27 except that it doesn't have a Singer badge on it! King Model - First Edition As featured in the original 1908 manual: https://archive.org/details/1908-king-sewing-machines-buffalo-ny/mode/2up I believe this is probably the most rare King machine that exists in multiples, at least until we can prove the oddball one-offs weren't just one-offs. Likely Manufacture Dates: Started: 1908 Ended: ...some point before 1911? (The Franklin appeared advertised with the 3-spoke handwheel.) Known Badges/Decals: "King" - red & curly decals - sold factory direct by King company Specs: Handwheel - 6-spoke, very curvy Belt - inside the handwheel Shuttle Carrier - wiry, matches original Singer Tension - tab release Stitch Length - knob on pillar Serial Number - on bed, front of pillar, same as Singer - the only photo example I have shows 4 digits Example pic - from a Facebook Marketplace listing in Roanoke, VA - posted the listing in the HEY! Check This Out thread. 4-digit serial number is ?056 - there does appear to be a digit underneath the rust/gunk, but I can't make it out. King Model - Early Edition Likely Manufacture Dates: Started: after the First Edition (could be as early as 1908) Ended: through early/mid-1912, based on Franklin advertising information. Known Badges/Decals "King" - red & curly decals - sold factory direct by King company "Franklin" - scarab decals - sold via Sears catalog through Spring 1912 catalog "Bison" - Singer Sphinx decals - sold to a customer in Buffalo, NY with no further records Specs - changes from previous in bold Handwheel - 3-spoke, relatively flattened Belt - outside the handwheel Shuttle Carrier - wiry, matches original Singer Tension - tab release Stitch Length - knob on pillar Serial Number - underneath slideplate - examples known with 5 digits, may have more or less [photo TBA] King Model - Common This seems to be the most common form when the machines are actually labeled "King". Likely Manufacture Dates: Started: early/mid-1912 (based on Franklin advertising) Ended: maybe around 1919? (based on uncited dates for the Minnesota A change to the long stitch lever: https://www.kelsew.info/domestic/domesticmodels.html) Known Badges/Decals "King" - red & curly decals - sold factory direct by King company "Franklin" - scarab decals - sold via Sears catalog "New Willard" - Davis dragon decals - sold factory direct by King company Specs - changes from previous in bold Handwheel - 3-spoke, relatively flattened Belt - outside the handwheel Shuttle Carrier - wiry, matches original Singer Tension - automatic release, no tab Stitch Length - knob on pillar Serial Number - underneath front slideplate - most likely 6 digits [photo TBA] King Model - variants yet to be cataloged at some point (1920?) they get a really long stitch length lever on the front of the pillar instead of the tiny knob at some point they get 6 spoke handwheels back, but a flatter 6-spoke handwheel than the First Edition at some point they start getting serial numbers on a thin plate attached in front of the pillar at some point they start getting serial numbers etched onto the bed, but behind the pillar (after the plate?? before? no idea) whatever the heck the "Franklin A" machine with the Minnesota A decal set is King Model - New Willard variants yet to be cataloged Treadle variants came first in 1915 & were advertised/sold as being from the King company, sold in both parlor cabinets and tables. Electric variants came later and were sold in tables and in portable cases. Early portable cases all bentwood, later portable cases wood covered in fabric. Known Decals Davis-style dragons (occasionally labeled "seahorses" but as Jim pointed out, seahorses don't have feet) - rare? uncommon? - probably early, seems to come along with 3-spoke handwheel? - owned by MrsBoat on QB: https://www.quiltingboard.com/3498422-post25.html and daselby found someone thinking to sell theirs: https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1335512844&postcount=22372&forum=501752 Curly Victorian-ish swirls - probably early? Pansies - purple - very common? - https://twitter.com/info2hope/status/629312329679773697/photo/3 Pansies - gold - very common? - might be a later version based on high serial number - https://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage-antique-machine-enthusiasts-f22/new-willard-sewing-machine-t197854.html - more gold pansies with serial 429204 - https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/willard-vibrating-shuttle-sewing-1720918165 Red Southwestern decals - uncommon? - https://offerup.com/item/detail/1563660514 - likely late? New Willard electric with Domestic-label motor - purple pansies & 6-spoke handwheel plus a large 6-spoke belt pulley for the motor belt - https://www.bonanza.com/listings/Vintage-New-Willard-Sewing-Machine-For-Parts-Domestic-Machines-233A63/1390648985 White-style motors have patent date of 1927, so sometime after that - New Willard electric with White-label motor - purple pansies & 6-spoke handwheel, serial # on bed behind pillar - patent date of 1927, which puts it post-White-acquisition - I think motor runs directly against handwheel? - https://offerup.com/item/detail/75310675 New Willard electric with unlabeled motor - same shape and patent date of 1927, but without the White name - small belt pulley & motor runs directly against handwheel - https://web.archive.org/web/20230716213617/https://www.ebay.com/itm/145115405744?hash=item21c98d5db0:g:4e8AAOSwv-NkeRna New Willard electric with red decals - White style motor - https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/willard-1927-vintage-antique-sewing-1549218761 There are probably other machines out there masquerading as "Domestic" machines that are really just Kings through and through...can you spot any? Other Known Models Made by King - yet to be cataloged VS machines- Minnesota "New Model" A - for Sears - another VS machine, not sure this was all that different from a King model except for having the spool pin in the middle of the arm instead of the top of the pillar? TBD... Domestic Vibrator - made in King factory after 1915 - had shuttle eject button and some other differences documented by Kelly - http://needlebar.org/nbwiki/index.php?title=King Minnesota H - a VS model with leaf tension - for Sears Lessing - a VS model with leaf tension - I believe sold factory direct by King? Rotary machines - Domestic Rotary - made in King factory after 1915 - a rotary model based on the previous Domestic Rotary Domestic Hi-Speed 69 - electric, made starting 1919 - a rotary model based on the Domestic Rotary For now I am focusing on models from 1924 and earlier since those seem to be the least documented. Many of these models continued to be made 1925 and later after White bought them out. After I feel these have been covered, I'll start on the White-owned continuances. I will put some that I know of here: Famous-Barr Special - likely a rebadged New Willard as it has the pansy decals - except it also seems to take 20x1 needles?? did White change the standard? - https://www.quiltingboard.com/vintage-antique-machine-enthusiasts-f22/famous-barr-special-t313332.html various New Willard electric machines Treadle Irons Angular with "King" - early, advertised in 1908 Curly with "King" - standardized, advertised in 1911-1913+ Curly with no label (aka Franklin treadles) - 1911+, seem to have been used for more generic things - the Bison machine has generic Franklin-ish irons/treadle [yes this is useless without pics but I am trying to get it all down in words first! 😃] Unknowns Were serial numbers shared across all machines/models or did they have separate runs for Franklins vs Kings or Sears vs factory-direct machines? How'd they get those Singer and Davis decals for the Bison and New Willard machines? __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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OurWorkbench

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Posts: 4,754

Posted 1689480315	Reply with quote #2

The link to the King original 1908 manual has some extra characters in it. If you edit and highlight it, click on the link icon and then click on cancel. You can then highlight it again and link it again. When you paste the link in make sure there is not a http:// or a space in front of the https:// Correct link is https://archive.org/details/1908-king-sewing-machines-buffalo-ny/mode/2up Janey __________________ Janey
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babelglyph

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Posts: 207

Posted 1689482895	Reply with quote #3

Oof, thanks for catching that 😃 I thought I saw a space but then didn't work back to check. Fixed! __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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alwen

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Posts: 4,890

Posted 1689554272	Reply with quote #4

I don't know that this will solve any of the mysteries, but I think you'll find this article and its factory photos interesting: "How Sewing Machine Parts are Molded and Cast" The Molding Machine Plays an Important Part in the Production of These Light Castings at the Plant of the King Sewing Machine Co The Foundry, September 1915 https://archive.org/details/sim_foundry-management-technology_1915-09_43_277/page/345/mode/1up
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babelglyph

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Posts: 207

Posted 1689555512 · Edited	Reply with quote #5

Attempting some serial number mapping...there are some oddities, like a Franklin with a 274,000s serial in the older style but a New Willard with White electric in a 207,000s serial. I'm not yet sure if the Franklin machines used the same serial numbers or if they just did sequential numbering and Franklin machines stayed the same "Common" model. Kelly's found advertising that shows the Franklin keeping the stitch length knob instead of ever changing to the lever - https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1335515086&postcount=16&forum=501752 - but at some point they change to the 6-spoke handwheel, which would be a later model, cataloging TBD. King Model - First Edition - serial number on bed on front of pillar ?056 - King - seen on Facebook Marketplace in Roanoke, VA King Model - Early Edition - serial number under front slide plate 52895 - Bison - owned by babelglyph King Model - Common - serial number under front slide plate 130137 - King - seen on Facebook Marketplace in Twin Lakes, WI 141856 - King - owned by kndpakes 172473 - Franklin - owned by kndpakes 274025 - Franklin - seen on http://www.white-river-art.com/around-crawford.html - (3-spoke handwheel) King Models - variants TBD 206160 - New Willard (electric/late) - seen on eBay listing - serial number on bed at back of pillar 207921 - New Willard (electric/late) - seen on Goodwill listing - serial number on bed at back of pillar 429204 - New Willard (electric/late) - seen on Worthpoint listing https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/willard-vibrating-shuttle-sewing-1720918165 - serial number on plate attached to bed at front of pillar 433848 - New Willard (electric/late) - seen on Worthpoint listing https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/immaculate-antique-sewing-machine-501057372 - serial number on plate attached to bed at front of pillar Lessing Model - variants TBD 422488 - serial number on plate attached to bed at front of pillar - https://historyendeshabille.wordpress.com/2021/02/01/a-thick-description-of-suzie/ I will update this as more serial numbers are provided. Please share a photo if you are adding yours! __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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kndpakes

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Posts: 2,148

Posted 1689625408

Reply with quote #6

I would add Minnesota X to the list of machines likely made by King.

Here are Franklin SNs that I have crowdsourced along with description comments if I had them. The 5xxx,xxx machines were made by White and have the SN on a bed tag. I believe that all of the King ones have the SN in the slide plate groove.

Model	SN	SS=sit straight treadle, introduced in Spring 1916 Sears catalog

Franklin	11659
Franklin	15698	3 spokes
Franklin	19495	Jul 1911 Warranty	***
Franklin	27038	3 spokes
Franklin	60009	3 spokes
Franklin	65225
Franklin	66202	3 spokes
Franklin	67139
Franklin	74255
Franklin	96543
Franklin	101006	3 spokes
Franklin	109310	3 spokes
Franklin	125817	3 spokes, SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	130149	NOT SS
Franklin	132501
Franklin	156505	3 spokes, parlor
Franklin	170752
Franklin	172473	3 spokes
Franklin	174314	written inside cover, no date
Franklin	177603	3 spokes
Franklin	179241	3 spokes
Franklin	188998	1915 according to owner
Franklin	200531	3 spokes, SS trreadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	21?148
Franklin	240506	3 spokes
Franklin	242467	3 spokes
Franklin	252540	3 spokes
Franklin	256020
Franklin	271845	3 spokes
Franklin	320610	3 spokes, parlor
Franklin	322066	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	327185
Franklin	328473
Franklin	332134
Franklin	342220	found in 1919 catalog
Franklin	355896	warranty1928	SN under slide plate
Franklin	356958
Franklin	360029
Franklin	366560
Franklin	369285
Franklin	371723	SS treadle, mission cabinet. 6 spokes
Franklin	374580
Franklin	377471	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	378912
Franklin	384288	the 2 was hard to read, may be something else
Franklin	391270	bill of sale 1922, 1923, or 1924
Franklin	391536
Franklin	399560		SN under slide plate
Franklin	407832
Franklin	450029	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	452148	portable electric
Franklin	469723	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	470704
Franklin	471015
Franklin	472375	SS treadle, mission cabinet	SN under slide plate
Franklin	476520	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	477445
Franklin	522815	1927 according to owner	White, bed tag
Franklin	529307	SN behind pillar	White, bed tag

The only King Rotary SN I have is mine. That is a really hard to find model. I searched for years before finally snagging one recently.

King Rotary

stitch length plate

1200920K

head only

Domestic Rotary

1231029

Domestic Rotary

1234345

Domestic Rotary

1237607

stitch length frame

Domestic Rotary

1245723

stitch length frame

Domestic Rotary

1263300

stitch length frame

Domestic Rotary

1337596

stitch length frame

Economy Rotary

1354617

stitch length frame

Economy Rotary

1355463

stitch length frame

Minnesota X		38777
Minnesota X		36120

Minn H, numbers all over the place, some may be from motors, SN >3xxx,xxx made by White, SN on bed tag

Minnesota H	13614	stitch length plate
Minnesota H	H 2823
Minnesota H	5443
Minnesota H	C 6450	may be G
Minnesota H	7662
Minnesota H	8338
Minnesota H	19345	stitch length plate
Minnesota H	302721	bed tag behind pillar
Minnesota H	3230867
Minnesota H	G1468164

King VS

King	8754	under slide plate of machine which isn't in auction
King	11253	portable electric
Bison	52895	treadle
Prince	54261	treadle
King VS electric	55635	portable electric
Electric King	122575	no motor, was in treadle cabinet
King	123155	portable electric
King	130137	parlor treadle
King	138055	treadle 3/0/3
King	141856	parlor treadle

Lessing, frequently advertised int he 1920s but very hard to find

Lessing		427195
Lessing		428067
Lessing		429785
Lessing		433892

Minnesota A. What's weird about these is the later machines have lower numbers (per stitch length design), so apparently they reset the SNs in 1920 when they started putting them on the stitch length frame. The ones over 400,000 have the SN on a bed tag under the motor, I'm guessing made by White. Some people gave me 4 digit number with a C as the SN and said it was on a tag, others have higher numbers with a Cxxxx number on a motor, so I don't have high confidence in some of these data points.

			SN loc	stitch length - long vertical is 1920+
Minnesota New A		708	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		1478	stitch length plate	long vertical,
Minnesota New A		483 or 4837	stitch length plate	long vertical
Minnesota New A		6760		long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		C6768	stitch length plate	long vertical
Minnesota New A		11453	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		16393	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		16717	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		38123		knob
Minnesota New A		70414		knob, can't tell
Minnesota New A		89765		knob,
Minnesota New A		120918	under slide plate	knob, side clamp
Minnesota New A		126922	under slide plate	knob, side clamp
Minnesota New A		129523		knob, can't tell
Minnesota New A	missing	164499
Minnesota New A		190946		knob, side clamp, 3 spoke wheel
Minnesota New A		220263		knob
Minnesota New A		246285	under slide plate	knob
Minnesota New A		314581
Minnesota New A		402248
Minnesota New A		413356	on machine under motor, 6407 under motor, 1927 Franklin motor	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		417158	on machine under motor, C5669 on motor	long vertical, can't tell

I have around 40 Domestic Vibrator SNs ranging from 41707 to 620830. I have one dated SN:

Vibrator

617526

1924-02-10

warranty

I have to clean up the New Willard section before posting it.

Kelly

kndpakes

Senior Member
Registered:1553729501
Posts: 2,148

Posted 1689625506

Reply with quote #7

Model	SN	SS=sit straight treadle, introduced in Spring 1916 Sears catalog

Franklin	11659
Franklin	15698	3 spokes
Franklin	19495	Jul 1911 Warranty	***
Franklin	27038	3 spokes
Franklin	60009	3 spokes
Franklin	65225
Franklin	66202	3 spokes
Franklin	67139
Franklin	74255
Franklin	96543
Franklin	101006	3 spokes
Franklin	109310	3 spokes
Franklin	125817	3 spokes, SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	130149	NOT SS
Franklin	132501
Franklin	156505	3 spokes, parlor
Franklin	170752
Franklin	172473	3 spokes
Franklin	174314	written inside cover, no date
Franklin	177603	3 spokes
Franklin	179241	3 spokes
Franklin	188998	1915 according to owner
Franklin	200531	3 spokes, SS trreadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	21?148
Franklin	240506	3 spokes
Franklin	242467	3 spokes
Franklin	252540	3 spokes
Franklin	256020
Franklin	271845	3 spokes
Franklin	320610	3 spokes, parlor
Franklin	322066	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	327185
Franklin	328473
Franklin	332134
Franklin	342220	found in 1919 catalog
Franklin	355896	warranty1928	SN under slide plate
Franklin	356958
Franklin	360029
Franklin	366560
Franklin	369285
Franklin	371723	SS treadle, mission cabinet. 6 spokes
Franklin	374580
Franklin	377471	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	378912
Franklin	384288	the 2 was hard to read, may be something else
Franklin	391270	bill of sale 1922, 1923, or 1924
Franklin	391536
Franklin	399560		SN under slide plate
Franklin	407832
Franklin	450029	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	452148	portable electric
Franklin	469723	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	470704
Franklin	471015
Franklin	472375	SS treadle, mission cabinet	SN under slide plate
Franklin	476520	SS treadle, mission cabinet
Franklin	477445
Franklin	522815	1927 according to owner	White, bed tag
Franklin	529307	SN behind pillar	White, bed tag

The only King Rotary SN I have is mine. That is a really hard to find model. I searched for years before finally snagging one recently.

King Rotary

stitch length plate

1200920K

head only

Domestic Rotary

1231029

Domestic Rotary

1234345

Domestic Rotary

1237607

stitch length frame

Domestic Rotary

1245723

stitch length frame

Domestic Rotary

1263300

stitch length frame

Domestic Rotary

1337596

stitch length frame

Economy Rotary

1354617

stitch length frame

Economy Rotary

1355463

stitch length frame

Minnesota X		38777
Minnesota X		36120

Minn H, numbers all over the place, some may be from motors, SN >3xxx,xxx made by White, SN on bed tag

Minnesota H	13614	stitch length plate
Minnesota H	H 2823
Minnesota H	5443
Minnesota H	C 6450	may be G
Minnesota H	7662
Minnesota H	8338
Minnesota H	19345	stitch length plate
Minnesota H	302721	bed tag behind pillar
Minnesota H	3230867
Minnesota H	G1468164

King VS

King	8754	under slide plate of machine which isn't in auction
King	11253	portable electric
Bison	52895	treadle
Prince	54261	treadle
King VS electric	55635	portable electric
Electric King	122575	no motor, was in treadle cabinet
King	123155	portable electric
King	130137	parlor treadle
King	138055	treadle 3/0/3
King	141856	parlor treadle

Lessing, frequently advertised int he 1920s but very hard to find

Lessing		427195
Lessing		428067
Lessing		429785
Lessing		433892

			SN loc	stitch length - long vertical is 1920+
Minnesota New A		708	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		1478	stitch length plate	long vertical,
Minnesota New A		483 or 4837	stitch length plate	long vertical
Minnesota New A		6760		long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		C6768	stitch length plate	long vertical
Minnesota New A		11453	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		16393	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		16717	stitch length plate	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		38123		knob
Minnesota New A		70414		knob, can't tell
Minnesota New A		89765		knob,
Minnesota New A		120918	under slide plate	knob, side clamp
Minnesota New A		126922	under slide plate	knob, side clamp
Minnesota New A		129523		knob, can't tell
Minnesota New A	missing	164499
Minnesota New A		190946		knob, side clamp, 3 spoke wheel
Minnesota New A		220263		knob
Minnesota New A		246285	under slide plate	knob
Minnesota New A		314581
Minnesota New A		402248
Minnesota New A		413356	on machine under motor, 6407 under motor, 1927 Franklin motor	long vertical, side clamp
Minnesota New A		417158	on machine under motor, C5669 on motor	long vertical, can't tell

I have around 40 Domestic Vibrator SNs ranging from 41707 to 620830. I have one dated SN:

Vibrator

617526

1924-02-10

warranty

I have to clean up the New Willard section before posting it.

Kelly

babelglyph

Senior Member
Registered:1656127323
Posts: 207

Posted 1689627338	Reply with quote #8

Kelly! You fabulous researcher you! I knew you'd have more, look at you go. Thank you!! I agree about the Minnesota X and will add that to the list soon. And I forgot about the Prince label -- that definitely should go with the rest. It's a King model. If you have photos of the 5-digit serial number ones, I'd love to try and spot when the tension tab disappears. That would give us a before-1912 and after-1912 benchmark. That 8754 King -- if that SN was under the slide plate, then the obscured digit in the one I saw must be 7 or lower, since that was on the bed directly. Making me wonder if it's actually 3 digits...but then there's nothing saying they didn't start their numbering at 5000 or something like that! No one said the first machine has to be numbered "1". I'm very excited by all of this. :D Please do let me know how else I can help your efforts! __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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Retcynm

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Posts: 2,627

Posted 1689627550 · Edited	Reply with quote #9

I've been referring to my Minnesota A as being "domestic-built". Should I start saying "King-built"? I don't think the bobbin-winder is OEM. __________________ Lucille in PDX Sewing Machine Fairy M y YouTube channel
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babelglyph

Senior Member
Registered:1656127323
Posts: 207

Posted 1689628534	Reply with quote #10

Yes, I think that's a King machine. The serial number on the bed underneath the front slide plate is unique to King factory machines, as far as I'm aware. and I think your bobbin winder very well could be original -- not necessarily, but it's quite similar! The placement of the bobbin winder on most King model machines is slightly different from the placement of a bobbin winder on a Singer 27 or 127. The King model treadle machines will have the winder low on the pillar like a 27, but further to the right -- to catch the treadle belt running outside the handwheel instead of inside like a Singer would. Things get weird once motors are added, of course, but for the treadle ones it helps. __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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babelglyph

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Registered:1656127323
Posts: 207

Posted 1689628649 · Edited	Reply with quote #11

Oh wait! Yours has 3 spoke handwheel but the belt goes on the inside? I need to look closer at the other Minnesota A models... EDIT: another idea. I haven't taken the Bison apart yet -- any chance the handwheel could have been put back on backwards? The belt doesn't quite line up with the bobbin winder and is riding close to the inside edge of the cabinet holes, too...but I'm not sure if that's normal...? __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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Retcynm

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Posts: 2,627

Posted 1689629250 · Edited	Reply with quote #12

Yah, but now I'm noticing something. I had been initially thinking that the bobbin winder was a replacement because it's pulley doesn't line up with either the belt or the handwheel (like when there's a rubber tire). Now when I look at it I can clearly see that the belt pulley itself is not aligning with the holes in the cabinet either. It's almost as if there is supposed to be a groove-on-the-outside handwheel! __________________ Lucille in PDX Sewing Machine Fairy M y YouTube channel
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Retcynm

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Posted 1689630109 · Edited	Reply with quote #13

Hand wheel mystery solved. Nothing to see here folks, just move along. points towards stage left <loudly> Look, over there!! exists hurriedly, stage right I do not remember ever removing the handwheel, I swear __________________ Lucille in PDX Sewing Machine Fairy M y YouTube channel
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kndpakes

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Posted 1689630957	Reply with quote #14

Quote: The serial number on the bed underneath the front slide plate is unique to King factory machines, as far as I'm aware. Domestic put SNs under the slide plates from the 1870s on. Demorest, Williams, Household and Helpmate also used that location. I'll see what I can find for Franklin photos. I have been collecting SNs and photos for about 15 years now, with gaps in between bouts of enthusiasm. Over time I did not record or file things exactly the same way, and sometimes I just don't know what I meant by my notes that no doubt were quite clear at the time. Add in a couple of computer and file disasters and it isn't pretty. Kelly
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kndpakes

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Posted 1689631629	Reply with quote #15

OK, I have Frankin SN 27038 with the tab and SN 96453 with no tab. No photos for any SNs in between. Kelly
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babelglyph

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Posted 1689638939	Reply with quote #16

Quote: Originally Posted by kndpakes Domestic put SNs under the slide plates from the 1870s on. Demorest, Williams, Household and Helpmate also used that location. Aha, I'd seen the Domestic reference but not looked further to know if it was only King-made Domestics or further back! Thank you. I'm definitely learning as I go. Crash course! At least I know Singer 27 style + SN under slide plate = King-made! (Until they move it, at least.) And Lucille! What a lovely King-made machine you have with the belt on the outside of that 3-spoke handwheel! I must have had my wrong glasses on earlier, it's clearly always been that way... :D :D :D __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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babelglyph

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Posted 1689651946 · Edited	Reply with quote #17

The Minn X prompt reminded me and I went back through the Minnesota Machine Guide thread - https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/minnesota-machine-guide-12522739 that Minnesota Model E -- I'll eat my hat if it's not a King-made machine, too. It's got a flattish 6-spoke handwheel with the treadle belt on the outside, a low-and-to-the-right bobbin winder, that loooong stitch length lever in the front, and the late-model serial number spot on the bed behind the pillar. Very similar to all the electric New Willards -- except for the wide square-corner bed, of course. Dates would put it about right for the end of when King made sewing machines in the factory, I think, but that's TBD. Minnesotas probably made by King - in alphabetical order Minnesota "New Model" A - pretty definitely King-made - late example shown on thread with long stitch lever, early example here from eBay listing: https://i.imgur.com/bFuwiIV.png Minnesota E - quite likely a King, although very late, likely post-White acquisition, square corner bed (2nd) Minnesota H - leaf tension - probably King-made - Lessing-style machine Minnesota M - pretty definitely King-made, flattish 6-spoke handwheel, although it sure looks more like a Franklin than a Minnesota! Kelly's Sears documentation puts it in the 1930s and I think it looks...cheap. Might have been their budget "we don't recommend this" machine but it's weird they offered it and the Franklin at the same time. Minnesota X - pretty definitely King-made! Early enough to have the 3-spoke handwheel AND the tension tab - but it is not quite a King model because the spool pin is moved and it has the extra bump -- but it's King-y through and through. I am getting a feel for them by this point... But then there's one more -- let's talk about the Minnesota K. You know. the one with the leaf tension that looks so much like the Minnesota H. this is identified on the thread as a Davis, but I'm looking between it and the H and wondering if it's not actually a King-made Minnesota too? Lessing-style, but earlier than the H. We know King was using the Davis-style 3-spoke handwheel. They certainly used round stitch plates and side-clamping feet. Stitch length lever on the bed in front of the pillar also appeared on some Domestic/King machines made after 1915. The long stitch length lever found on the Minnesota H is usually cited to 1920 -- which is the year the H started to be advertised in the Sears catalog. The Minnesota K appears in 1916 and 1917 only. I wouldn't mind getting a pic of a serial number on a Minnesota K to confirm...but I'm strongly leaning towards "weird Davis" = actually not a Davis at all, but a King-made machine with a Davis-style handwheel. Chronologically we'd have (from Kelly's spreadsheet, by year of introduction) these machines made in the King factory and marketed by Sears: 1911 - Franklin (King model) 1912 - Minnesota X (King model? but with spool pin towards needle) 1913 - Minnesota New Model A (King model? but with spool pin towards needle) 1916 - Minnesota K (Lessing-style model w/leaf tension & stitch length small lever on bed) 1920 - (2nd) Minnesota H (Lessing-style model w/leaf tension & stitch length long lever on pillar) 1934 - Minnesota E (King model? but with extra-long rectangle-corner bed) 1934 - Minnesota M (King model? but super-cheap-looking!) Probably there are more - Franklin Rotary perhaps? not sure if they started making White-style designs in the King factory or not. TBD, I guess. I think...overall, King Model = Franklin (treadle). The earliest treadle-only New Willards with the Davis dragons or curly Victorian decals - those are King models too, I think. But before long, all the New Willard machines look more like King-made Minnesotas than King-made Franklins - screw on front instead of trapezoid inspection plate; spool pin moves towards the needle end on a little ledge molded onto the arm. So far, the New Willards with the 3-spoke handwheels are all King Model style. New Willards with 6-spoke handwheels are more Minnesota-style. Except the Minnesotas also vary as well. I will need to get all the different King-made Minnesotas clustered together and properly compare. Then I can move this to the Minnesota thread. For now please consider this speculation with crunchy bits in. (a few years, for texture...) And I still don't know why the spool pin moved on the Minnesota compared to the King/Franklin, or what other mechanical changes there are on the inside! please...if you know...enlighten me? it's that or see if the eBay seller with the New Model A will accept half their asking cost so I can find out for myself next week. (which - yes - i am considering anyways, because at this point...........but...not until next week) __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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kndpakes

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Posted 1689702996 · Edited	Reply with quote #18

Quote: That 8754 King -- if that SN was under the slide plate, then the obscured digit in the one I saw must be 7 or lower, since that was on the bed directly. Making me wonder if it's actually 3 digits...but then there's nothing saying they didn't start their numbering at 5000 or something like that! No one said the first machine has to be numbered "1". I don't have a photo of the SN, but the seller said it was under the slide plate and it definitely isn't on a bed tag in front of the pillar. It seems odd that they would stamp an initial zero on the ?056 one, and with the placement of the digits it does appear to be missing a first digit even though one is not visible due to the crack. It is definitely earlier than the one above because it matches the 1908 manual with the belt holes through the machine bed. I never noticed that in the manual before you pointed it out. Here is a post where we discussed the Minnesota K. It is indeed a mystery machine. https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/does-anybody-have-a-minnesota-k-12617467 White had a contract to make all Sears machines from 1924-1935 according to this article. It also gives 1924 as the date that Sears bought Domestic and part of King. As I have stated a few times, I will be posting photos showing features comparing all the models I have in the next week or so. I have to clean them first. Kelly
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jomercer

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Posted 1689703299 · Edited	Reply with quote #19

Well, well. Here's my Minnesota New Model A. I found one very similar to it, listed in the 1918 Sears catalog simply as Minnesota A https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiuo.ark:/13960/t75t81s47&view=1up&seq=574&size=125 It came in an oak parlor cabinet, which I was able to find in a 1922 Sears catalog at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101066805050&view=1up&seq=309 round needle plate low shank feet slotted take-up lever Singer-style "dogtag" inspection plate spool pin located mid-arm no release tab on upper thread tension assembly complicated clutch knob belt groove to outside of 3-spoked handwheel pillar-mounted turn-knob stitch length selector serial number under front slide plate A 293279 Any ideas on who made my Franken-machine and and when? __________________ Jo Mercer Crofton, Maryland, USA
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babelglyph

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Posted 1689704865	Reply with quote #20

jomercer, that looks like a King to me, basically the Common model but the Minnesota spool pin. (plus whatever else is different about a Minnesota vs a King model.) The underside looks just like my Bison. that "14" on the pivot point in particular -- the 27 says "SIMANCO" there. I don't know if it's unique to King machines, but it's certainly the same on mine. Pics attached. (It's been dusted but not cleaned.) But the "A" at the front of the serial number is interesting. could just be something they tried for the Minnesota A series, could mean something else? Everything else matches top and bottom so I think it's more of a novelty than a sign it's not a King. __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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babelglyph

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Posted 1689706655	Reply with quote #21

Quote: Originally Posted by kndpakes OK, I have Frankin SN 27038 with the tab and SN 96453 with no tab. No photos for any SNs in between. I missed this yesterday! Thank you. If the Franklins and the Kings share the same serial number series -- and I think they do - my Bison (with tab) fits right between with SN 52895. And please don't let my current enthusiasm rush you along! Your pics will be appreciated no matter when they appear. (And I am about getting to the end of what is readily searchable for the things I've been looking up, so...I promise I will slow down soon!) __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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jomercer

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Posted 1689709338	Reply with quote #22

Do you have a manual for my particular version of the Minnesota New Model A? Quote: Originally Posted by babelglyph jomercer, that looks like a King to me, basically the Common model but the Minnesota spool pin. (plus whatever else is different about a Minnesota vs a King model.) The underside looks just like my Bison. that "14" on the pivot point in particular -- the 27 says "SIMANCO" there. I don't know if it's unique to King machines, but it's certainly the same on mine. Pics attached. (It's been dusted but not cleaned.) But the "A" at the front of the serial number is interesting. could just be something they tried for the Minnesota A series, could mean something else? Everything else matches top and bottom so I think it's more of a novelty than a sign it's not a King. __________________ Jo Mercer Crofton, Maryland, USA
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alwen

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Posted 1689734992	Reply with quote #23

For your virtual collection, a King in a parlor cabinet on Craigslist in Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, 8 pictures including a pic of the slide plate serial number (130137): https://racine.craigslist.org/atq/d/twin-lakes-king-sewing-machine-cabinet/7643171083.html
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babelglyph

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Posted 1689735531	Reply with quote #24

Beautiful, thank you! I love the view underneath with the split slide plate. Dropping this here for later - a post-White Minnesota H with serial number 303615 on the bed. Digital collections sure are easier to store than real ones. 😃 __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Posted 1689736161	Reply with quote #25

Quote: Originally Posted by babelglyph Digital collections sure are easier to store than real ones. 😃 I needed that laugh. =) you have no idea of how extensive my digital collection has become, may need another hard drive! __________________ It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Custodes sutura perscriptorem* My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com Flashing lights, alcohol use, smoking, violence, foul language, textile content & sewing machines*
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kndpakes

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Posted 1689776520 · Edited	Reply with quote #26

I would add Elmore as a possible King machine. I previously thought it was a King/Domestic machine because it shipped from Buffalo and only from Buffalo. Sears 1916 spring catalog: Then yesterday I noticed that it has that Davis-looking stitch length control and compared it to a Minnesota K and they look virtually identical, including similar decals. Then this morning, Jo Mercer posted a shuttle page from a Sears catalog that shows the Elmore shuttle listed with a Davis shuttle. The Minnesota K has a Davis shuttle. Then I did a search for "Elmore" in VSS and found this in a post by Macybaby about Boye cases, which lists it as having the same needle and shuttle as King machines. So, now I am more confused than ever. I have had a daily eBay search for Elmore for years and I don't think I have ever seen one. I don't have any photos saved, at any rate. I think there might have been one once that was clearly not the model I was looking for. Elmore was in the Sears catalogs twice - in S&F 1916 and F 1921 - S 1923. The later catalogs have no machine image, so it could be a different model by then. The Minnesota K was in from S 1917 - S 1917, so at the same time as the first Elmore listing. I think Elmore fits on this thread under Mysteries like the Minnesota K! Kelly
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babelglyph

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Posted 1690176369 · Edited	Reply with quote #27

The Minnesota X is in the Spring 1912 catalog in addition to the fall - I went straight past it when I was looking only for the Franklin info. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101066804939&view=1up&seq=669&q1=model%20%22x%22 (it shipped from the KC warehouse -- but so did the Franklin -- I don't think that means very much, other than "the Buffalo warehouse didn't really exist yet".) the Minn. X also has something different than the King/Franklin style in the takeup lever and probably that means differences behind the faceplate as well - I should try and get pics of my Bison soon for comparison. __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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kndpakes

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Posted 1690210967 · Edited	Reply with quote #28

This is from the 1911 Fall catalog, the first one with a Franklin, and it says they ship from Buffalo, among other places. And this is from the Fall 1912 catalog, the first appearance of the Minnesota x: I have not found machines made by anybody but King that ship from Buffalo, except the mysterious Minnesota K and Elmore. The Minnesota X is definitely an oddball, unlike the models before and after. I should have my photo page up later today. Kelly
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babelglyph

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Posted 1690242098	Reply with quote #29

That's so odd. I wonder why they'd only list the KC warehouse in the spring 1912 catalog? __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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kndpakes

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Posted 1690288854 · Edited	Reply with quote #30

What's even weirder is that the Minnesota X isn't even in my catalog #124 for Spring of 1912. I have a different page 665! The cover looks the same as the one you found online. Page 665: I just triple-checked my download and went online to make sure I did not miss downloading any pages at the beginning or end. Mine definitely does not have a Minnesota X. Mine has the Minnesota S and the Hathi trust does not, and the Hathi Trust has Minnesota X and mine does not. Mine are downloaded from Ancestry.com. It says the one I have is catalog 124H. I discovered recently that there were catalogs that look identical but have different prices (https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/sewing-machine-models-in-the-sears-catalog-from-18941949-12531362), but I have no idea that catalogs labeled the same had different contents. OK, now I just went through and compared page by page and found the prices are also different. Plus everything ships from Kansas City in the HathiTrust catalog. Joe Mercer suggested to me that the price difference I discovered last week might mean the Hathi Trust catalog was Canadian. The one shipping location here now makes me think she is onto something. Multiple catalogs with the same cover but different contents and prices. This is very disturbing to me because it completely blows the accuracy of my Sears model chart!
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babelglyph

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Posted 1692999718	Reply with quote #31

Haven't forgotten about this -- just been quite busy with life. I came across this machine labeled "Ideal" that matches the New Willard pansy decals -- and basically every other New Willard post-White-acquisition feature: https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/289220-ideal-antique-sewing-machine There may yet be more badge names out there to be found... __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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babelglyph

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Posted 1694721167	Reply with quote #32

My post-1925 New Willard machine and my 1912ish Bison have very different shuttle shapes. But, they seem to take the same size/type of bobbin insert. They're similar on the outside, so I was surprised the shuttle shape was so different! The Bison one is chunkier. I thought for a bit that it might be more of a Singer 127 style instead of Singer 27, but no -- this page shows them both very clearly: https://vintagesewingmachinesblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/17/whats-new-in-singer-127/ The shuttle my Bison takes is a perfect match for the regular 27. No dimples/cutouts like the 127 had. The Franklin shuttle in the 1922 Sears catalog looks the same too. I wonder if they updated the King/Franklin design with customer-demand features (like automatic tension release, shuttle ejector, etc.) but didn't mess with the shuttles? I'll be curious to find out if the New Willard shuttle matches the Lessing shuttle. And about any later Franklin shuttles after 1920! __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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Heresolong

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Posted 1694726349	Reply with quote #33

Quote: Originally Posted by kndpakes What's even weirder is that the Minnesota X isn't even in my catalog #124 for Spring of 1912. I have a different page 665! The cover looks the same as the one you found online. Page 665: Yeah, but at least they had Heathcoat Silk Malines. __________________ Calvin "Bother" said Pooh, as he connected at 14.4K bps.
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kndpakes

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Posted 1697561606	Reply with quote #34

We were in Buffalo last week so I drive by the factory and took some photos and put them on my webpage. https://www.kelsew.info/domestic/kingfactory.html
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pgf

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Posted 1697563036	Reply with quote #35

Of course you did!! Thanks! __________________ My machines: http://projects.foxharp.net/sewing_machines/by-age
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jon

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Posted 1697670672	Reply with quote #36

Very nice King factory photos. Hopefully some of the plant gets preserved. Jon
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Heresolong

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Posted 1697673128	Reply with quote #37

Quote: Originally Posted by jon Very nice King factory photos. Hopefully some of the plant gets preserved. Jon Rode the Harley through Buffalo on the way to Archers for "original" Buffalo wings and passed a Packard dealership surrounded by chain link fence and garbage. It was amazing and would be a treasure anywhere else. __________________ Calvin "Bother" said Pooh, as he connected at 14.4K bps.
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kndpakes

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Posted 1697720421

Reply with quote #38

Quote:


Very nice King factory photos. Hopefully some of the plant gets preserved.

Thanks! This is the current plan:
https://buffalonews.com/business/local/doug-jemal-king-sewing-machine-factory-demolition/article_9557d3bc-1136-11ee-a75c-4397e17f896a.html

Olaf

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Posted 1697763580	Reply with quote #39

There is still a King thread on the old needlebar.org main site: http://needlebar.org/main/makers/usa/histories/king/index.html Olaf __________________ Drøbak, Norway "Who says nothing is impossible? Some people do it every day!" Alfred E. Neuman
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thesaintsrelm13

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Posted 1698616524	Reply with quote #40

Hi, I'm new here & trying to find information about a King Treadle Machine in Cabinet I have. SL1200160K. Could be a Common Model. Would love to know the possible year but have no idea how to find that. Thank you very much for any help.
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jplowrey

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Posted 1698617349	Reply with quote #41

Welcome to the forum thesaintsrelm13! Someone on here will know the answer to your question. __________________ Regards, John
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Retcynm

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Posted 1698617444	Reply with quote #42

Welcome to VSS, thesaintsrealm13 Going by kndpakes post(#7) near the top of the thread, the King Rotary is definitely not a common model. Those iris decals are beautiful! __________________ Lucille in PDX Sewing Machine Fairy M y YouTube channel
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101?s

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Posted 1698617505	Reply with quote #43

Welcome to the forum, thesaintsrelm13. __________________ Lil
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Olaf

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Posted 1698618380	Reply with quote #44

Hi thesaintsrelm13, and welcome to the forum. Olaf __________________ Drøbak, Norway "Who says nothing is impossible? Some people do it every day!" Alfred E. Neuman
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Romwen

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Posted 1698621306	Reply with quote #45

Welcome to the group! That's a beautiful machine, & cabinet! Kathy R
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thesaintsrelm13

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Posted 1698623250	Reply with quote #46

Tyvm everyone! It's my daughter's & she'd like to sell it so I'm trying to get info about it
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kndpakes

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Posted 1698668431	Reply with quote #47

Hi thesaintsrelm 13. Your daughter's machine is beautiful! Thanks for the SN for my database. We don't have any specific dating info except likely from the mid to late 1910s. While not common, King brand machines are not well known or particularly in demand. I would speculate that it would sell for whatever a common Singer goes for in your area. Prices can vary widely by region. Where do you live? Kelly
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thesaintsrelm13

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Posted 1698672922	Reply with quote #48

I'm in Frankfort, IL a suburb of Chicago. She bought it at least 8 yrs ago in an antique store in Orland Pk. Il. Ty for your feedback & glad I could add to your database
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babelglyph

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Posted 1698967458	Reply with quote #49

Agreed, King Rotary is not what I call a common version. (But I appreciate the kick to get back and add the rest of the photos!! I have not had much spare brain in the last few months to organize this info better.) Mostly because it is a rotary machine and the ones described in depth are all vibrating shuttle machines, with long stitch cover plates that run the width of the machine. I haven't seen much about the King Rotary models in my research yet -- I've been meaning to dig in a bit more to see what I can find, though. __________________ babelglyph (she/her)
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kndpakes

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Posted 1699014408	Reply with quote #50

I thought I had updated my webpage to fill in the photo grid with rotary photos, but it looks like all I did was the Lessing. I did update the Model ID page to credit King for the machines previously thought to be made by Domestic. https://www.kelsew.info/domestic/domesticmodels.html Kelly
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