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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #1 
I just got my great great grandmothers sewing machine out of the family storage unit (snicker) and am working on gettig it back up and running. I have no experiance in sewing machines but I have rebuilt a large shaper, southbend heavy ten lathe...and various other much larger machines so I kinda know at least somewhat of what im in for. I need any and all info on this model as ive been able to find next to nothing so far other than a post of rebuilding one just like mine on a quilting forum (yea im looking for him or someoen else to help) and was told he went here. I really really need a manual, needels itll take, thread sizes etc. Main thing is the one ive got workes well but i need "timing" info for all the parts (a blow up would be awsome). I need lots o help and hope you all can at least send me in the right direction. Thanks
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #2 
I think Miller is on this group but if you're going to be fixing up a Wheeler and Wilson recommend joining the Wheeler and Wilson group which Miller does own.  Likely you can also get everything you need here just as well.  Needles are going to be harder to come by for this machine but you can sub to a different needle easy enough.  Bobbins are also unique.  Best regards, Mike
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks fer the info....waiting on approval at that FB forum...Ill try keeping up on both. Thanks much 😉 Funny there is next to nothing on the industrial model #12.....lots on all the 9's but next to nadda on the 12.
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #4 
Here are some pix.....

IMG_0011.jpg  IMG_0012.jpg 

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thank you for the pictures. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but to clean the machine and decals most of us use sewing machine oil. On the metal bits that are taken off the machine metal polish can be used. It looks like it has a needle that can be measured and hopefully find a comparable needle. A needle list can be found at http://ismacs.net/needle_and_shank/pdfs/ismacs-needle-list.pdf

I think Mike is referring to https://groups.io/g/Wheeler_and_Wilson-Sewing-Machines and indeed it is focused on machines for family use.

There are some pdf files for the Singer 12W machines at http://parts.singerco.com/IPpartCharts/ and http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/ which includes http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/12W_14W.pdf Maybe they can be of help.

https://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Sewing-Machines/NMAHTEX/0144/index.htm is the 1924 catalog for Singer machines made in Bridgeport and https://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Sewing-Machines/NMAHTEX/2752/index.htm for the 1908.

Have fun.

Janey

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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks but i havent even got to strippin the gunk yet heh....deff not with WD40 but a good stripper and evapo-rust after a total strip...(works great).  trying to get info for the re-assymbly (and proper timming) and parts info if needed....as usual when ya get an off project [wink]
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #7 
Hello again,  Had to dig through emails about Wheeler and Wilson.  Industrials like the later version no 7 and no 12 took a 128x1 needle.  Some of the domestics (like 8, 9, d9) took a 127x1 but a db1 can be substituted on them.  The 128x1 has a shorter shank from reading.  You should be able to sub out a db1 there also with a little work finding the sweet spot.  For the feet many of these will accept same foot as the Singer 107w (industrial zig zag machine) that was based upon the W&W's that all came out of the Bridgeport factory after Singer bought out Wheeler and Wilson in 1905.  We have some W&W's here now (hand crank 8 and hand crank d9) but nothing compared to what we have coming (no 12 industrial, another hand crank no 8, treadle no 8, and three no 7's).  Our cue of machines to come here is long but steady (we are overseas).  I really like the W&W industrials because they were almost all 1800's machines (the 12's became 12w's after the buyout) and if I ran a factory in the 1800's it certainly would have had W&W's in the 1880's and 1890's.  From what I read the 12w's were around into the 1950's.  The D9 and 12's (especially the 12's in my opinion) were the pinnacle of engineering in it's time for domestics along with the Singer IM's for domestics.  Everyone has their favorites (post 1900 mine are White Family Rotaries for domestics) and for me the Wheeler and Wilsons were truly fine machines of their day and top the list of favorites.  Miller Fulks is the authority as he runs the group and answers these questions regularly instead of having to dig emails like me.  Best regards, Mike
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #8 
oh.....forgot to ask....what is your HAM radio in the background?  😉

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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #9 
KF7VZT Yaesu ft-950 with addin card for sdr, signalink interface, Heathkit Sb221 with all mods (LOL.....that was fun ....😉 running thru a mfj OCFD....what ya saw was the kilowatt amp .........good eyes [wink]
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #10 
akk  just saw yer reply....ty that will be very helpful 😉
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #11 
Something id re=ally like to know is what capacities does the #12 have? Havent seen anything.........
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #12 
around till the 50's?!?! i can find next to nothing on them other than what a few have sent to me.....how can that be? Just tryin to understand 😉
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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #13 
I don't know when the last time this was updated as I have one that lists the 130x1 as just being shorter than the 128x1, but the shank diameter and length to point is the SAME. http://ismacs.net/needle_and_shank/needle-cross-reference-chart.xls

Janey


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Phyllis1115

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Reply with quote  #14 
I have a Singer 12W102. It's a likeable and smooth moving sewing machine. Likely it is the same or very similar machine, but manufactured after Singer bought Wheeler & Wilson. My 12W "rents" time in my Singer 31-15 treadle. The 12W102 is narrower than the 31-15 so I carefully use it or add a cutting board for support. I am allergic to wood dust/shavings so I have not added a permanent panel to support the 12W.

My 12W did not need any adjusting beyond cleaning and oiling. I have a couple pdf files of 12W manuals and will answer any questions that I can. 

My collection also contains a Singer 10W industrial hand crank, a Jones Spool, at least four W&W 9/D9 treadles in my house (plus extra machines and treadles in storage), three or four Singer 9Ws, three W&W8s, a W&W7 industrial and three curved needle machines. The most treasured machine is the Singer 9W with a low shank adapter. 

-Phyllis in Iowa



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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #15 
Nice HAM setup!  We have two  Elecraft stations here overseas but in storage in USA I have a complete Harris 1kw solid state (using the old MRF154's) with dual 48v power supplies in a rack.  New the system was 60k USD and used (minus the coupler) it was 3k for me.  We have some homebrew also in storage.  I've got a homebrew amp with 812 tubes in it that gets an honest 700-800 watts on 80 meters.  Some of the 812 tubes still have US Navy anchors on them and likely WW2 tubes.  I still prefer the CW just as much as the SSB ragchewing where you can likely still hear retired folks complaining about having to go out to mow the lawn on the weekends 😉

  I know the DB1 will work in the 8/D9 as I put one in my 8 and D9 but I adjusted by eyeball the position in the needle bar clamp.  The original was a shank with a flat side to it.  The 128x1 in the industrials was a round shank.  Since the 128x1 is a little shorter according to emails and I think you have an original sample it would become my sample only and not for use.  I'd take a dremel and a cutoff tool and shorten the dbx1 industrial needle to correct length.  The dbx1 is likely the most common industrial needle in existence as all the "high speed" machines use them (single needle industrial lock stitch like the Juki 555 series).  I can buy them in the city alongside the domestic needles.  

  My plan is to have a row of industrials along with a few other domestic 1800's machines set up for classic jeans production if one wants to skip the 1900s Union Specials/Reece/Singers that later were in the factories (we have all of those also).  Right now coming we have a Singer no 2 but it'll be a total of 3 crates to get here with the table set up and most of the head coming as I type.  I'll have to make a shuttle for it.  That one is from 1869.  We also have a Civil War era Singer no. 2 from 1864 which is an Imperial with the heavy shuttle coming here and an 1858 Grover and Baker portable no 20 "long bed" (so I was told it is called) double thread chain stitch.  My goal was to find which machines were used in the first Levi's factory.  After a ton of research I discovered a book that quoted an ad from 1873 when Jacob Davis and Levi Strauss finally got their patent approved for the rivets (on the third try after re wording when the first two attempts were rejected) and subsequently started their factory (sub contracted out prior).  The ad requested "50 first class lady's that can bring their own machines either Singer no2 or Grover and Baker no1" (no 1 was the improved lock stitch that was first introduced in 1867).  We have two of those of different versions also coming in the cue and also missing parts that will need to be fabricated so we'll have a pair.  The one machine that would be nice and almost as unobtainium would be the Reece model "J" keyhole button hole machine.  Reece first made the keyhole machine in 1881.  We have two Reece 104's a much more modern but still entirely mechanical keyhole button hole machine.  They didn't offer hemmed "overalls" with chain stitch on them in the 1800's according to the books I've read for the denim head collectors but the 1858 chain stitch machine will "one up" the folks with their Union Special 43200G's (we have that also).  We have a 12 shaft countermarch overhead beater flying shuttle loom for hand weaving the denim if needed also.  Other interest is in old school waxed canvas products so we have leather and canvassing machines here.  So....work/rugged wear and old school waxed canvas is where the interest lies for us.

  In regards to what the no 12 can do.....it is a rotary hook machine that was the fastest in the world when it was first introduced (going from memory 4k stitches?)  I personally wouldn't run it over 1k spm.  They had different versions including a double needle etc but consider a tailors industrial machine of today and that is what it is.  It can sew denim, canvas, lighter material.  It is an underfeed only so has the limitations of that.  For upholstery folks went to the walking foot (I think there was also a no12 walking foot variant but I've never seen it on the internet) like the 16-88/16-188 and eventually to the Singer 111w(single needle)/112w (double needle) compound feeds (and also had variants needle and underfeed without walking foot).  I saw one internet page of a no 12 that had come out of a museum with a zig zag attachment built into it like the 107w (Irish embroidery machine was one variant).   The 107w started it's roots as a W&W machine as many Singer industrials.   Singer likely bought out Wheeler and Wilson for a few reasons.  Eliminate the competition, get the factory that by 1949 encompassed 15 acres of buildings and several thousand workers, get the really well designed industrials, take over as the premier industrial mfg. of the time in the world until Asia took over in that arena.    
Best regards, Mike

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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #16 
Very interesting read. I am thinking of getting a New Williams model of the D12/12W machine on table here in Canada. You make me want to have a Philippines vacation mike, and see that line of machines.

  John
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #17 
Edited to add that I googled New Williams and there is quite a bit of mystery around those machines with the one factory reportedly burning down in the early 1880's with suspect they were selling badged machines finally closing in 1929 but no solid documentation found on a quick search.

Hi John,  That would be great but not recommended until Jan/Feb time frame.  Not only is that a beautiful time of the year here but also we are still building and several of the older industrials are in the cue coming here.  We had for the longest time 1-2 workers but the last 9 plus months has seen typically in excess of 7 workers on any day with some exceptions like barrio fiesta etc.  By Jan/Feb time frame of next year hopefully many ongoing projects will be at 100 percent completion.  For example we are working on a second "carport" that will have a roof 51feet long by approximately 22feet wide (still deciding on the overhang amount on the sides).  The back portion is two stories so only the first 20 plus feet can be driven into with a short divider keeping the cars off the back portion.  When finished at some point we will submit a permit to enclose it and turn it into a building.  We have now finished the road to the lower property.  Upper is 1700sq meters but lower is 5,000 sq meters (1/2 hectare or 1.2 acres).  Now we need to extend that road behind our small house on that property and build a commercial building there.  We are going to install the latest 36 solar panels on the second "carport" which is already a stupidly large amount as it is.  Then we will extend the extension on the studio we are now finishing up on around the side of the house between the house and the wall.  This last/second extension will be entirely enclosed in screen above the short wall and a clearish fiberglass corrugated roof to make a greenhouse (not really) that is over 20ft long by 17ft wide allowing placement of a cnc cutting table in the center amongst other things.  So to sum it up we have been working on what will be an overnight success 3plus years in the making and well into the final stages (I hope).   Lots of moving parts but if you make it out here that would be fine just likely a dis appointment if before beginning of next year.  Even the two story tree house has the last 1 to 2 percent of completion being done for little things like sheets on the two beds leaf/branch design on the walls, installing the White FR machine, installing a fan(s), running some cable TV cable and ethernet (already has electricity).  That was a 7 to 9 month long project in it's own right already and habitable/nice but still needs the final "move in" type touches.  Best regards, Mike
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #18 
I have two W&W #12's  The top one actually came out of a sweatshop in San Francisco and is not used for that reason.

The lower one has an interesting roller edge guide, but is a tremendous machine to sew on

20160327_201151.jpg 

20170816_223224-800x600.jpg    


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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #19 
Couple questions....I am missing the tread spool holder up top as well as the bobbin winder.....will the units from the #9's fit the #12's? I seem to have been really lucky as the bobbin carrier was there just no bobbin....in the bobbins place was a regular lil spool of thread so I am guessin that worked as a hack at some point? LOL....got very lucky and found 2 bobbins on eBay for this model. Just curious about parts interchangeability as well. And if anyone does have PDF docs on the 12w please by all means let me know as Id love a copy emailed out 😉
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #20 
I believe the manual in in the manuals section of this site.

Yes, in my case the spool holder and screw from a #9 worked on my #12

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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #21 
I looked in the files section but was unable to find anything on the 12W. I do have 3 pages from the Smithsonian but sure doesn't seem like anything that'd be in an owners Manuel but a sales brochure. Ill keep looking thanks 😉
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #22 
Steve in the 2nd picture.....you have 3 threaded holes with thumbscrews in them (this would be the back side of the machine) as well as a rod that goes from the base to the head (and it appears that it is also hand driven...correct me if im wrong plz)..... 1. what attachments are those holes for? 2. What is that rod at the rear that goes from the head to the base? Lastly, would it be possible to get some pix of the foot and the needle holding assembly? I could really use some good closeups [wink] Thanks
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #23 
Does anyone know if a bobbin winder for a #9 will fit the #12?
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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #24 
Steve, I couldn't find a manual for the #12 in the manuals section. I know I referred to both the 8 and 9 for threading my Junker.

Cypher, have you had a chance to check the pdf files for the Singer 12W machines at http://parts.singerco.com/IPpartCharts/ and http://parts.singerco.com/IPinstManuals/ ? I know they don't have the 102, but perhaps there are some similarities to some of the other 12W's

Janey

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Madmurdock75

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Reply with quote  #25 
Mike, about that Singer 2 - I saw a shuttle on eBay for one of those. Not cheap, but still...
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #26 
Very interesting on the shuttle.

 This is what an expert told me:

"There's no way to tell what size shuttle your #2 will need, until you have it. As far as I know, the #2's came with 4 different shuttle sizes. Boyes did not make shuttles for any Singer machines except a domestic use number 27/28. "

  The no 2's are in transit one crate at a time (scary but only choice).  Currently I have one table with another crate having the head in it in transit.  Then will be a crate with I think is the hand wheel and some cast iron legs to a White FR twig type table.  Then will begin the journey in segments for the 1864 no 2 machine.  Likely I might need to wait for both and see if the one will fit in the other but hard to say.  With the shuttle carrier in front of me and armed with dimensions from auction it might be enough to decide......

If you can PM me the auction information I can look into it. 
Thanks. 

Best regards, Mike
 
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Madmurdock75

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Reply with quote  #27 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6cvh
Very interesting on the shuttle.

 This is what an expert told me:

"There's no way to tell what size shuttle your #2 will need, until you have it. As far as I know, the #2's came with 4 different shuttle sizes. Boyes did not make shuttles for any Singer machines except a domestic use number 27/28. "

 



Will pm you! I did not know about there being different sizes. Very interesting.


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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #28 
Just searched the drawers and found a bunch of needles! The pic below has 3 sets of needles, the 2 stacks on the left have round shanks....the 12 on the right all have a flat on them. How do I tell what ive got as the containers they were in are not what they came in. Suggestions?


IMG_0018[1].jpg 

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #29 
Here is a photo of the back, before i painted the replacement Presser foot lift arm that i made. 
It is copied from the Original bar that cam on my shorter #12. 
I extended the pattern to fit this unit and it worked great.

20170816_190737-800x600.jpg


These are the only pictures I currently have of the presserfoot area.  The machine is in storage, so new pics will have to wait until after my 2 week vacation

20170502_224619-600x800.jpg
  20170502_225608-600x800.jpg  20170510_210310-800x600.jpg 


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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #30 
Nice looking W&W 12 Steve !!  I'm excited to get ours here and give it a go making stuff.  Was hoping to buy a 2nd from a C.L. seller in Chicago but he never came through on it.  I have a parts 12 that was dropped (I think multiple times) that I'm hoping to get a few tidbits off of but still looking for another 2nd one.  Best regards, Mike
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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cypher
....Suggestions?...


I have downloaded the excel spreadsheet from http://ismacs.net/needle_and_shank/needle-cross-reference-charts.html which gives dimensions and some other info.

Janey

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #32 
I'm pretty sure we posted the ismacs needle list here if not let me know and I'll post it
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #33 
W&W 21-W125 - 01.jpg  W&W 21-W125 - 04.jpg   thank you this is what it looked like when I got it

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #34 
Hi Steve,  If I understand the thread properly your no12 came from a Victorian Sweat Shop in the San Francisco bay area?  Do you have more of the story?  Best regards, Mike
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Cypher

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Reply with quote  #35 
Oke....now we get down to the nitty gritty.....timing this thing. Ive pretty much finished cleaning the parts that needed it....had to remove the main camshaft for cleaning and that is where my issue lies. The main camshaft goes to the front of the machine and is connected to the bobbin shaft. This is where the timing happens unless im way off. If im correct what is the proper way to time this thing....thanks 😉
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