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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #1 
I didn't know I was going to do this, but apparently I am...

I'm trying to identify White labeled sewing machines from the 1950's, 60's and perhaps some 70's.
The problem is that there is no data base of information to reference. I'm having to stumble upon different models, identify the model number and then hope I can find an advertisement or perhaps an original owner situation or sales receipts to date the machine model. There's just around 130 to 140 possible machines that might fit this group and so far I can date 16 of them... it's a start.

So if any body happens to own an electric White of that time period and knows the production date, or have see an ad, or read a blurb... I could sure use some help.

The model number sequence doesn't make any sense at all. Machines you would think are the earliest have 3000 series numbers, while later machines are three digits. Here's a great example in the machine models I've found (so Far) in the 100 number range:

W120.jpg  W130.jpg  W162.jpg  W165.jpg  W166.jpg  W167.jpg  W173.jpg 


One looks like a 50's model, others from the 60's while others yet from the 70s?

Any help would be appreciated. =)

I should probably include the models I have dated:

model 265 - 1971
model 363 - 1964
model 426 - 1975
model 455 - 1972
model 465 - 1975
model 530 - 1971
model 603 - 1972
model 659 - 1961
model 651 - 1956
model 675 - 1975
model 761 - 1954
model 764 - 1964
model 765 - 1965
model 793 - 1973
model 940 - 1973
model 1365 - 1966
model 2836 - 1961
model 3052 - 1960




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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #2 
I salute you for taking on this task. It will drive you to drink. White machines by this time weren't even really Whites, just badged Japanese machines, this is going to be like pulling hen's teeth lol. Model numbers will have no rhyme or reason to them, especially since there was more than one manufacturer involved over the years and each had their own system of numbering models. The only advice I can give that may be helpful is that when you are researching a specific model, also look for other badged names of that same model. Info might be available for other badges without the knowledge that the machine was also badged as a white.

Cari

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hello group, and to add to the mystery I believe some were badged and made in Taiwan.  I've been researching this machine linked below (which the seller has not answered what model it is) and the best I can figure is it is the same maker as the JC Penny 6900 series machines as well as the Nelco and one other (that is slipping my memory now).  However without a model number who knows?  I know that many think that  Kenmore 158 machines were all made in Japan but towards the end they were even made in Taiwan.  The 6900 machines take a cam however it appears and are all metal.  I like the solid look of the metal table that is removable.  Our Cub 7 and Kenmore 158.1060 plastic removable storage are rather flimsy construction.  


Best regards,
Mike
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-white-SEWING-MACHINE/164007466340?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D7e1fc435b4424d7ca9e28720c1626f38%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D9%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D293337748212%26itm%3D164007466340%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A9ed9c4c8-2d1b-11ea-a3da-74dbd1804818%7Cparentrq%3A6498a91f16f0a9c98cd36426ff965614%7Ciid%3A1
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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #4 
Mike, by about 1980 most lower end machines were being built in Taiwan and now even in China. Only the high end big money domestic Japanese machines are actually built in Japan.

Cari

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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #5 
If this helps: I have a White 690 that was made in Japan in 1976. Its a flatbed machine, and it had a freearm sister version called the 510 that was apparently available simultaneously. I have run across some info that suggests that 1976 was the ONLY year they were made. They're both oddball and rare, you encounter a 510 once in a while on eBay and elsewhere, but I've *NEVER* encountered another 690. A model 710 apparently superseded the 510. I would *LOVE* to know who made my 690 - and get a straight stitch needleplate for it.
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #6 
Do you have a double pulley reduction for the motor on your 690 ?  That is a really desirable characteristic that the Kenmore portable 158.1060 and Frister and Rossman Cub 7 as well as many other Kenmore machines of that same time period of 1976 plus/minus had.  It would be a dead giveaway that it's same factory as the 158's in Japan.  I see a 510 now on eBay in untested/unknown condition and am going to bid on it if it has the double pulley reduction.  It has a stated 1.3 amp motor and the triple stretch stitch.  The stretch stitch no 4 on it is quite interesting looking and I'll try that out as well.....if it has the double pulley reduction.  The gull wing knob activated full bed is kind of cool on that 510.  Best regards, Mike

Edited to add:  Miss Morgan has a youtube video on the 510.  Apparently there is a two speed switch which likely means there is a tapped transformer instead of a double pulley reduction.  That gull wing pop out on the full bed from free arm is pretty cool!

Edited again to add:  So the name plate states 120v/130w/1.3 amp motor.  Ohms law basics makes it a 1.08 amp motor.  So I guess they are rating the motor by start up current ?  😉  hahaha.  




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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #7 
Oh, I know it's a hairball! But dammit someone needs to straighten it out. Every year that passes, so do the original owners. Best to get to it now while there's still some opportunity. White maintained selling labeled machines until being bought by Husqvarna Viking in 1989. Mid-fifties to late 50's White machines still found their way out of the Cleveland plant, some of the line were being provided by Gritzer-Kayser in Germany, and the rest were from multiple manufacturers in Japan. By 1961 all of the White sewing machines were from Japanese suppliers.

Yep, the numbering system is all over the place.

139226913115546saam-1.jpg 

No, I did not have the White 690 or 710 on any of my lists! First I've heard of them, and that doesn't surprise me one bit. Bet it won't be the last unknown model. I did stumble upon a model 510 (shown above) and almost ignored it since it looked too modern.  That's three more known models dated today, (found another one this morning) one unknown, and two new models to the list. Seriously considering spending some quality time at the library and going through periodicals. I'm guessing Lady's Home Journal might be a good place to start?

The good new is that averaging two different White models dated each week... and this will only take a year.
That's all. Just one year. (He says ever-so-hopefully)


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My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hi Jim,

  OK, I bid on the 510.  Picture shows it serial number 00427 so they surely didn't make allot of them.  Sturdiness of the gull wing doors (I mean table extensions) would be a concern but  Miss Morgan in her video states all metal machine so I guess it's worth it.  I'm about to give up on a vintage all metal machine that does the elusive lightning bolt.  Likely I'd get the machine and not like the stitch anyways.  Since testing yesterday I now know I can get mad strength and stitch using the triple stretch with a twin needle.  

  What is on my list is a good machine that is an end loader with external motor.  I've read the quality of the machine is just as important as the end loader function is for good satin stitching.  Some machines are much wider than others also. I know Kenmore machines are known for wide zig zag as are the Necchi (that are also known to have super tight tolerances).  
 
  What would your White number of choice be for a made in Japan end loader?  I am a fan of White machines big time and in actuality would choose one over most Singers (but there are high quality Singers as well....I just like White).  

Best regards,
Mike
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #9 
Mike, sorry. I have no idea. I find the Whites, clean them up, get them to sew, and hand them to my sister. I'll ask her later today, but chances of getting a recommendation are slim. She likes them all. Might want to ask the group. An 'end loader' over here is what we called the Takeuchi TW80 that I used to operate. It was way too much fun - wish I was still doing it. That job never got dull.

The list remains somewhat the same today.

One clerical error, yet another model added, and did find references that suggest the production dates on the 510, and 690 is 1976, and 710 is supposedly 1977. But, the day is still young, so crossing my fingers something new is found.

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
*QuiltnNan and asshat may be synonymous...
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #10 
Jim here is one a bit far from me down near Toronto. http://www.kijiji.ca/v-hobbies-craft/guelph/free-white-sewing-machine/1479930645?undefined
 looks similar to the treadle you showed and states it is a 599 model.

  John
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #11 
A different one just in case this is Canadian only, never seen you show this one i don't think. http://www.kijiji.ca/v-hobbies-craft/kitchener-waterloo/1950s-all-steel-white-brand-sewing-machine-with-1-amp-motor/1479918920?undefined
 

  John
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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #12 
Yea, the 690/510 has a 2 speed switch - and I really like that feature. They use oddball bobbins too.

http://www.doubleveil.net/zssmp/white.htm

The 510 uses a different needleplate from the 690 - and mine didn't come with a straight stitch plate and I really could use one. Have never found one. I'd even settle for a second zig-zag plate and have it converted! Someone else here on this forum also has a 510.

Oh, and there were TWO different White 305s as well, deets here (scroll down slightly): http://www.doubleveil.net/zssmp/tz17.htm They badged the Toyota TZ-17, which bore a "De Luxe 305" pillar badge, then they also sold a "White 305" (apparently later).

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thank you Zorba and John. I had found the other 305, the 599 is new.
I've been meaning to ask Zorba if he's ever had the chance to play with a TZ.3, but this is hardly the time or place. =)

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #14 
Nope - I've never even seen a TZ-3, just read about them.
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nrselady

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Reply with quote  #15 
The top one looks like my 672. RARE-VINTAGE-1950s-WHITE-672-ZIG-ZAG-SEWING.jpg 
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #16 
The White model 672 was one of six machines offered by the company in 1958.
Others being the model 670, the 671, and the 659 or 659-X, the odd looking "New Rotary" machine made by Juki for White.
The 659 was a straight stitch only machine with a "205" stamped into the underside.

(Now those were super fun sentences to write! Maybe by the end of this I can write a few more!)

24 White models now dated from a list just short of 140.
Usually I try to find a front, back, serial number, manual and cam (if needed) photograph. Meeting that criteria is 46 different models.
The 'new to me' list has trickled down considerably (one yesterday, none today) while the 'dated' and 'image' list increase by maybe one or two a day.

Slow and steady right? =)

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
*QuiltnNan and asshat may be synonymous...
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #17 
Someday, if I buy a White, I'm sure I'll thank you for your efforts!
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #18 
Someday hopefully you'll know which White to buy, lol. How hard they are to find, and what may be missing. When I went to try to figure out what late fifties model of White I had stumbled across, I was told to contact Katie Farmer - who's writing the book on White. She was very polite in pointing out that her work was centered specifically on the machines built here in the US, in New England and then Cleveland. So unless that's changed... I don't think that putting together a model reference for the foreign manufactured electrics are going to step on any toes. =)

These 761s are getting hard to find. This one's a tad on the expensive side without knowing that all the bits & bobs and the cam set is there, but still, they're not making them any more. This might be that moment in time where the ones that get saved now may be the only ones around in a hundred years.

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
*QuiltnNan and asshat may be synonymous...
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nrselady

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/Steelsewing
The White model 672 was one of six machines offered by the company in 1958.
Others being the model 670, the 671, and the 659 or 659-X, the odd looking "New Rotary" machine made by Juki for White.
The 659 was a straight stitch only machine with a "205" stamped into the underside.

(Now those were super fun sentences to write! Maybe by the end of this I can write a few more!)

24 White models now dated from a list just short of 140.
Usually I try to find a front, back, serial number, manual and cam (if needed) photograph. Meeting that criteria is 46 different models.
The 'new to me' list has trickled down considerably (one yesterday, none today) while the 'dated' and 'image' list increase by maybe one or two a day.

Slow and steady right? =)
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nrselady

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Reply with quote  #20 
Thanks, Jim, for all of your hard work here. I really enjoyed getting some information on my machine. 
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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #21 
Jim here's another one for you, White Futura 762
White Futura 762.jpg 

Cari


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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #22 
Thank you Cari, I have never seen that one before.
It opened a can of worms as well since there's apparently a 464 Futura as well.
Add two more to the list!

(where ever did you find it?)

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #23 
Current working model list for those keeping score at home:

100s: 120, 130, 137, 162, 165, 166, 167, 173

200s: 230, 262, 263, 265, 268,

300s: 305, 322, 363, 365, 366, 369

400s: 404, 415, 426, 455, 463, 464, 465, 466, 468, 472, 477, 499

500s: 505, 510, 511, 524, 530, 535, 565, 566, 568, 571, 573, 578, 599

600s: 603, 609, 611, 616, 618, 620, 622, 624, 625, 626, 628, 629, 639, 644, 650, 651, 656, 659, 660, 664, 666, 667, 670, 671, 672, 673, 674, 675, 677, 690

700s: 710, 742, 761, 762, 763, 764, 765, 766, 769, 782, 793

800s: 804, 816, 844, 870

900s: 935, 940, 951, 954, 960, 967, 970, 976

1000s: 1077, 1088, 1099

1100s: 1166

1200s: 1265, 1266

1300s: 1314, 1315, 1356, 1365

1400s: 1411, 1418, 1466, 1477, 1488, 1499

1500s: 1505, 1510, 1514, 1563, 1599

1600s: 1620, 1632, 1665

1700s: 1750, 1760, 1762, 1787

1800s: 1866

1900s: 1919, 1927

2000s: 2031

2100s: 2134, 2137

2300s: 2334, 2335

2800s: 2836

3000s: 3052, 3077

3300s: 3354, 3355

3400s: 3455

3900s: 3954, 3955

6400s: 6477

6700s: 6738

8900s: 8931

9900s: 9951

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
*QuiltnNan and asshat may be synonymous...
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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/Steelsewing
Thank you Cari, I have never seen that one before.
It opened a can of worms as well since there's apparently a 464 Futura as well.
Add two more to the list!

(where ever did you find it?)


A new person on my FB group just got it.

Cari

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #25 
I've probably added forty more to the list since my last post. Some are so bizarre that I've never seen another, and others were right there in front of me all along and I didn't put two and two together. Take this innocent advertisement from  1956:

Screen Shot 2020-04-07 at 9.13.37 AM.png 

That sure does help date a few models... except I didn't 'really' look at it. I forgot to notice the smallest one:

Screen Shot 2020-04-07 at 9.14.24 AM.png 

White 'Open arm' (giggle) model 655...

Hey... wait a second... haven't I seen a machine kinda like that somewhere else?

Well duh.

gritzner-prospekt1956-06a.jpg 

and there we have it, the Gritzner FZ. Now, all I have to do is find the White labeled one,

or someone that owns one to get some pics.

vintage-white-sewing-machine_1_22fa100cee2840c2e14ecd11801682a7.jpg 

Except that this long gone auction photo is it. Haven't found another one yet.

and this:

Screen Shot 2020-04-07 at 9.46.14 AM.png 

One by one, by golly, one by one...


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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
*QuiltnNan and asshat may be synonymous...
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Humdinger847

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Reply with quote  #26 
Hi Jim, 
I found another of the White 762 Futura on a Toronto area Kijiji post last week. No real info in the ad so no help there. 
Screenshot_20200406_102951_com.android.chrome.jpg 
I did find something interesting though... A brother machine that was definitely made in the same factory as my Futura 762 as the resemblance is uncanny. This Capital Badged Brother Window Matic and the Brother Window Matic both have similar features as the White Futura 762 and 464. The difference that I found was the Window Matic had 5 stitch lengths and the Futura only had 4. Well back to search some old magazines now... I feel I'm getting closer to finding a date for my Futura 762... 😊
Screenshot_20200412_104115.jpg  Screenshot_20200412_104412.jpg 



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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #27 
Similarities can often be found on machines with different manufacturers, but I've never seen evidence that Brother built any vintage White machines. If you look closely enough the differences are there, Brother did not build the 762.

Cari

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Humdinger847

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cari-in-Oly
Similarities can often be found on machines with different manufacturers, but I've never seen evidence that Brother built any vintage White machines. If you look closely enough the differences are there, Brother did not build the 762.

Cari


Cari I didn't say that Brother made this White machine. All I said was that they were very similar. Possibly built in the same factory around the same time. I am trying to put a date to my machine and this was the closest I have gotten.

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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #29 
I'm not following your logic. If they were made in the same factory the White would be a Brother. [smile]

Cari

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #30 
I do sort of understand HD's logic. When it comes to machines made in Japan there does seem to be a period when they built machines that had this shape, then later a period when they had that shape. There was a certain amount of care taken to make the machines appearance appeal to trends and fads. The curvy two tone and over chromed machines of the late 50s became slimmer, straighter, with less chrome in 60s - just as the autos of the period did. Mid-sixties machines look different than mid fifties machines. If you can narrow down the time period by shape, that puts you in a five year range. It doesn't help a lot that many companies would introduce model X and then make it for three years... or more depending on sales, but it does seem to be what happened with some labels. There are (because if I don't say it Cari will) exceptions to this observation. The HZ-1 Singer 15 clone seems to have built all the time, just as it is still made today. 

This is a subject that I haven't really put into words yet but I may have to. My brain can only handle so many machines at once. Keeping track of 200 some odd White models is not even possible. I've found myself doing just this with machines I don't have a date for: classifying the machine in five year periods by shape. It's sort of a ballpark method, or maybe better said; a car-park method of sorting.  It's not by any means fool-proof, but sometimes its all I have.

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It's a beautiful day in the neighborhood.
There is grace within forgiveness, but it's so hard for me to find - Ben Gibbard
My adventures with VSM's: http://steelsewing.blogspot.com
*QuiltnNan and asshat may be synonymous...
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