Victorian Sweatshop Forum
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #1 
Why would a sm manufacturer specify to use "Left hand twist" thread in the needle, while either hand thread may be used in the bobbin.  And what is the end result if I use right hand twist thread ?
John
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #2 
Ok, just got done making a whole lot of practice stitches with the 31-15, which doesn't really take much time.  The needle is a Schmetz 18.  The red thread is two ply and has a right hand twist.  I can sew along for a foot or two, when the thread breaks at the needle.  The broken ends reveal that the thread twist has unraveled, contributing to the breakage. I tried it four times, with the same result each time. The yellow thread is also two ply, but with a left hand twist, with which I can sew along endlessly with no problems.  Interesting to say the least............but is the twist of the thread usually stated in the purchasing details ?
John
100_0281.JPG 

0
ndnchf

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 629
Reply with quote  #3 
John - you have motivated me to start working on my 31-15. Yesterday I read the manual and noted the statement about using left hand twist thread for the needle and either twist on the bobbin. I wondered the same thing and thought to myself "probably not necessary". Well, you have proven that Singer knew what they were talking about (no real surprise here). So why is this? Could it have to do with the way it loops around the bobbin thread? By casual observation, these machines have a very similar set up to a domestic model 15. I wonder if those call for a left hand twist thread for the needle too,
__________________
Steve in Virginia
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #4 
Steve, there just isn't a lot of info  about thread twist, which is called "S" and "Z" rather than right and left.  Apparently just about all thread now comes with a "Z" left hand twist.  In the currant age, rather than providing technical information about thread, the manufacturers just say..."button hole thread", "hand embroidery thread", "quilting thread", "Dual Duty", "Dual Duty XP", etc.  One hardly knows anything about thread weight anymore.  It is the "dumbing down" of America.
    I just found this site...

http://www.servicethread.com/blog/left-twist-vs.-right-twist-industrial-sewing-thread-differences-and-applications

that confirms my observations of yesterday that right hand "S" thread will untwist and make a mess when used as a sewing machine needle thread. I have two 1/2 pound cones of "S" twist that I now know that I must use as bobbin thread ONLY.  I have read that hand quilters have trouble with their thread getting snarled up.  I now wonder if the ,"use specific, hand quilting thread" has a right hand twist, whereas, left hand sewing machine thread is not applicable to hand quilting.  If I have some hand quilting thread, I will check the twist and report.
John


0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #5 
Steve, I have found a spool of Coats "Machine Quilting Thread", which has a Z twist.  I do not have any hand quilting thread for comparison, but my hunch is that it will have the S twist.  Any volunteers with hand quilting thread willing to do a twist test ?  I have found on this Superior thread site...

http://www.superiorthreads.com/hand-quilting-threads/?gclid=CJ3q_d_N9NICFdW3wAod1GENmA

that their hand quilting thread is not intended for machine use, but they do not state why.

Although the 15 and 31 sm are similar, thread twist isn't mentioned in the #15 manuals, probably because it is beyond the user's need to know, since all of the thread that the consumer is likely to encounter will be Z, left hand twist.  The 31-15 could likely be used with big needles and big thread with multiple plies,  where the twist direction of the thread will be noted by the manufacturer.
John
0
ndnchf

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 629
Reply with quote  #6 
Good info John, thanks. I've been cleaning and adjusting mine today. I took some #69 thread from my 29-4 patcher and checked the twist - left hand. So I threaded up the 31-15 and tried it out. It worked just fine, no breakage or snarling. I still need to tweak the tension a little. But for a first trial run, I'm pretty pleased.

Attached Images
jpeg Stitch.jpg (76.44 KB, 4 views)
jpeg Head.jpg (64.05 KB, 4 views)


__________________
Steve in Virginia

0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #7 
Steve, did you run your 31 with any bursts of full speed ?  If so , was there any vibration ?  Do you know how many spm the machine is set up for.  Is your hand wheel symetrical or is it counterweighted on one side ?
John
0
ndnchf

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 629
Reply with quote  #8 
John - yes I ran it full speed on a couple of passes. No excessive vibration that I could tell. The handwheel doesn't appear to be counterweighted. The clutch and hand wheel pullies are both about 3". It's a 1725 rpm motor, so I assume the SPM is about the same as the motor.

Attached Images
jpeg Handwheel.jpg (69.86 KB, 3 views)


__________________
Steve in Virginia

0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #9 
As recieved, my 31 is belted 3 1/2 inches on the motor clutch and 2 5/8" on the hand wheel, with a 1725 rpm motor, which figures out to 2300 stitches per minute, with excessive vibration, as I have stated previously.  There is no way provided by which pulleys can be changed.  My clutch has an oil hole at the (end) center, and an off center screw plug, by which grease could be inserted for the ball bearings.  That, and the grease screw cups at each end of the motor.
John
0
Margaret

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,486
Reply with quote  #10 
I'm glad you started this discussion, Farmer John! I bought some 12 weight thread at a show, planning to use it on my sewing machine as top stitch thread. I looked closer at it today and it very clearly states that it is for handwork. I'll check the twist in a while. You may have saved me a great deal of exasperation!
__________________
Margaret 
Richland, WA
0
ndnchf

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 629
Reply with quote  #11 
John - I think I could put a smaller clutch pulley on mine. It appears to be just held to the shaft with a nut. I read where someone else put a 1.75" pulley on the clutch and that really slowed it down a lot. If I can't get used to this speed, I may try swapping pulleys.
__________________
Steve in Virginia
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #12 
Steve, your pulley is counter weighted, the same as mine, light where the curved  slot is and heavy where the  metal web is solid. 
John
0
ndnchf

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 629
Reply with quote  #13 
Oh yes, I see what you mean. I hadn't notices the difference in the webbing.

In other news, I just got the oil can holder mounted. A neat little accessory.

Attached Images
jpeg Oil.jpg (50.67 KB, 4 views)


__________________
Steve in Virginia

0
penny

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 341
Reply with quote  #14 
Hand quilting thread has a glaze. I learned the hard way that hand quilting thread will mess up the machine timing.

This is just my two cents on twist not being a problem with domestic machines. I think they do not sew fast enough to cause the thread to untwist. The industrial speed can heat the needle and cause thread breakage. When I had a job where I used industrial machines we had to dunk the spools of nomex thread in thread lube before threading the machines because of heat build up. The other threads didn't require it.
0
Margaret

Avatar / Picture

Moderator
Registered:
Posts: 2,486
Reply with quote  #15 
Thank you, Penny, I won't even try!
__________________
Margaret 
Richland, WA
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #16 
Penny, after some sleep, I will test your hypothesis by sewing with right hand twist thread in regular speed domestic sewing machines.  Report will follow.
John
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #17 
Penny, I must vehemently disagree  with your statement that twist of thread is not a problem on a domestic machine, and that speed is the cause of thread breakage.  Many tests were run today with "S" twist thread  on a Singer 15-91, with #16 needle, on double thickness cotton fabric.  Almost immediately, the thread begins to wrap around the needle, see photo.  I may be able to sew from 12 inches to 24 inches, at moderate speed, until the thread always breaks.  The twist is all that holds cotton thread fibers together, and the sewing machine un-twists the thread until the fibers just pull apart.  If you compare the twist of the thread behind the broken thread end with the LACK of twist to the thread in the sewn fabric, you will see that all twist is gone and the 15-91 is laying down two separate plies of thread.  I would refer you to this informative link..
.
http://www.servicethread.com/blog/left-twist-vs.-right-twist-industrial-sewing-thread-differences-and-applications

John
100_0284.JPG 100_0285.JPG 

0
Miriam

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 2,177
Reply with quote  #18 
I have got to check my thread. I just had a button hole disaster with my reliable 99. Maybe it was the thread twist. Worst button holes ever on that machine.
__________________
Never let a sewing machine know you are in a hurry..
urban Indianapolis
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #19 
Miriam, don't panic, I don't think that there is too much "S" twist floating around, other than my old 1/2 pound cone.  Today, I ran into my spool of hand quilting thread, along with a spool of machine quilting thread.  They are both Coats Dual Duty Plus.  The top thread is the smooth hand quilting thread with "Glace"( not glazed) finish, and .008 thick.  Notice that the machine thread is more fuzzy, and thinner at .005" thick.  Both are "Z" left hand twist.  I have a message in to Bob at Superior threads to ask just why their hand quilting thread should not be used for machine sewing.  The ducks are courtesy of Cecilia and her Elna duckie cam, 1950s Swiss technology.
John
100_0288.JPG 100_0289.JPG 

0
penny

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 341
Reply with quote  #20 
John well I'm glad I didn't think my advice was worth much. The Coats hand quilting thread that you have pictured is the same thread that messed up my machine timing. I can't remember where I read that hand quilting thread had a glaze but I've learned you can't trust everything you read on the internet. I hope Bob emails you the reason why the hand quilting thread shouldn't be used in machines.
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #21 
We are all learning, Penny, and after all, you DID only venture two cents, ha, ha.  A week ago, I knew nothing about left & right, Z & S thread twist, and I still would not, but for this 1/2 # cone of "S" thread.  I have only read about titanium nitride coated needles, and sewing sooooo fast that the needle is melting holes into the fabric.  WHEW, I can't think that fast.  I am having fun getting used to sewing at high speed on the 31-15, like driving a race car.  I prefer to sew on kneebar machines, so my brain sometimes forgets that the kneebar on the 31 is up & down for the foot, and not the stop and go, as it is on my other machines.

I could tell about having my wireless mouse backward and for a few seconds I was really at a loss for getting the mouse to go where I wanted it to go.......you should try it sometime.
John
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #22 
I got a quick reply from Superior thread about their hand quilting thread.........

(Quote)
"It is waxed.  I guess we should add that. Thank you for telling me. The twist is standard machine sewing thread, a final Z twist."
Bob

Now, I want to try machine sewing with waxed thread, just to see what happens.  I thought that waxed thread was sometimes used, or was that just for shoe repair.  My Wheeler & Wilson #8 can be equipped with an oil reservoir  with felt wipers that oils up the thread before it reaches the needle.  Help me out here, what was the purpose of oiling the thread ??
John
0
Cari-in-Oly

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,957
Reply with quote  #23 
I've never read that hand quilting thread will or has messed up the timing of a machine, that just makes no sense to me. But I have read many times that hand quilting thread does a number on the upper tension assembly, for the obvious reason that it's coated.

Cari

__________________
Olympia Washington
0
WI Lori

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,347
Reply with quote  #24 
John, I married into an old farming family. One of the tasks I took on, besides milking, feeding, barn cleaning, and AI was mending DH's choppers mitts, the type that one would use the thin woolliners with. Usually the thread would wear out before the leather, so repairing the stitching was economical. I seem to recall the spool of thread on the awl was waxed. Whether that was because the sweat breaks down the thread, or the chemicals used in tanning the leather for the mitts breaks down the thread, using waxed thread slowed the process.

DH also regularly liberally used neatsfoot oil on his leather work boots. When we were farming, I never saw him blow stitching on those boots. In the years since we stopped farming, and neatsfoot oil use has declined, he has had to replace boots much more often.

Of course, waxed thread glides much easier through a material like leather than an unwaxed thread. I remember my mom resewing buttons on wool coats, she kept a candle stub to wax the thread, again, for protecting the thread, or ease of sewing, I am not sure. Ah, to know why the old ones did what they did...

__________________
Lori in Wisconsin
0
Farmer John

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 980
Reply with quote  #25 
 Been their and done all of that, Lori, great life, but I don't want to do it again, at least not the same way.  I do kind of miss the warm sweet barn smell, with all of the cows munching away.  The broken water cups and flooded barn, I try to forget. When that W&W was made in 1882, there was  a greater use of leather, as there was no synthetic material.  So, it be leather chaps, vests, leggins, gloves, etc. 
John 
0
davevv

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 196
Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer John
I got a quick reply from Superior thread about their hand quilting thread.........

(Quote)
"Help me out here, what was the purpose of oiling the thread ??
John


I can't say for sure, but I can tell you my experience.  The first quilt I ever did with a flannel backing left a lot of small loops of top thread on the back of the quilt.  Not every stitch, but maybe one in every 20-30 stitches.  It seemed to me that the fuzz on the flannel had to be grabbing the top thread occasionally and overpowering the top tension.  Using thread lubricant on the top thread solved that problem.  

__________________
Dave
0
WI Lori

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 3,347
Reply with quote  #27 
One of my "sold the cows" regrets is that I did not record the contented munching sounds. All the stress just drips out of the soul, runs out and evaporates. I took some awesome naps in the mow over the feed bunker after feeding time!
__________________
Lori in Wisconsin
0
penny

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 341
Reply with quote  #28 
Cari this happened on a 1980 Singer Creative Touch 1036 (plastic gears and a wind in place bobbin). I wound the bobbin and then started to sew. I sewed a couple of  inches and I knew I was in trouble. I thought that I had broken my less than a year old machine. This was before I learned to do anything on machines so I brought to the Singer shop. I told the tech no problems until I used the hand quilting thread. He took a quick look and told me the timing was off. It wouldn't stitch so I didn't doubt him. 
0
ke6cvh

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 597
Reply with quote  #29 
Hello John and group!,

 With the double needle Singer 112w series each of the two hooks turn the same direction.  I've read where people say with the heavier thread to use right hand twist on one needle and left hand twist on the other.  But on the leatherworker.net I've read posts where people state it is ok with the smaller thread but not ok with the heavier thread.  The largest I've sewn with to date is ticket 30 but I do have some ticket 025c that I'm getting ready to try after scoring two dozen 3,000 meter spools of golden yellow Coats for a song (just over 1 dollar a cone) and can let you know if this also sews ok.  I've seen perfect stitches on two layers of material but when sewing multiple layers I get occasional tension issues on one needle but not the other that I'm still troubleshooting and surely will get figured out.  Why they say to use opposite twist is a mystery to me.  The only difference I can see is that one needle on the upper thread tension disc the thread approaches the disc from the opposite side than the other.  With that being the only difference it must be a case of when it goes through the upper thread tension and bends around it must be a different twist than when going through the opposite side on the other thread....does that make sense?  

  We have two Juki lh-3168's here which are a modernized clone in some respects to the 112w.  The upper thread tensioning is more sophisticated on it being it has a tiny pre tensioner before going into the main tension discs.  The manual for the 112w turned out to be incorrect because it had the thread approaching the discs at a bad angle causing the thread to wander from the center to the edge of the discs.  Easy fix, I just reversed the discs after the posts causing an tighter approach angle into the upper discs and subsequently no wandering.  There must be some type of unraveling taking place with the wrong twist as it bends around the upper tension disc.  I have seen problems at the eye of the needle occasionally on one needle but not the other which also may be a twist related issue but with very careful tensioning (really tight) the problem disappears.  Best regards, Mike
0
Farmhousesewer

Member
Registered:
Posts: 88
Reply with quote  #30 
Sorry for coming to the party late.

My Chandler Industrial manual also says use left handed only thread on the top. I can relate this to hand stitching and some basketry. 
When my hands are up to it, I love coiling. It uses a waxed thread, usually silk. Unfortunately, being left-handed, I am actually unwinding the thread when I coil. I wish there was something I could do, but these types of threads, whether silk, cotton or linen are all made for right- handed people, with no alternatives.  At least the proper threads are still available for industrial machines.



__________________
Maria
Smoky Mountains of Tennessee
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.