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Kitcarlson

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A digital bathroom scale was used to weigh an assortment of Singer machines. BWC is bentwood case.  

Revised list 9/28/2019 4:25 PM cst.

 
Attached Files
pdf SingerWeights_r3.pdf (48.54 KB, 4 views)


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seb58

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Oh thanks! That's useful ๐Ÿ˜‰
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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #3 
Your welcome. I hope to add more, forgot about Singer 101, have iron, need help on aluminum 101 and 201K.
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Chaly

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Reply with quote  #4 
A nice reference, thank you.  Will you add Singer 15 models?  
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Kitcarlson

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Chaly, thank you for reminder, will add 15.
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Deb Milton

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Reply with quote  #6 
I can confirm the weight of the 28 hand crank. Without the base and BWT mine weighed 28lbs.
I would weigh the aluminum 101 but itโ€™s in pieces right now.

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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #7 
I revised document in first post, to show Singer 15, 201 hand crank, other minor revisions.

Deb, looking forward to Singer 101 aluminum weight.

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Chaly

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Reply with quote  #8 
An interesting comparison - especially between the 15-91 and 201.  
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Kitcarlson

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Chaly, They both seem heavy. The 201K, post 1954 is aluminum at 24 lbs per https://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/201/. My wife is going to test Singer 115 with hand crank 24.5 lbs, for portable use. She is debating about AL 201K hand crank. Gearing of 201 seems to add drag, 115 very easy to crank.
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Farmer John

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Yes, those 6 helical bevel gears, four shafts and related bearing surfaces add drag to the 201.  In addition, the gearing is 2:1 for the hook, so the hook is spinning twice as fast as the handwheel, which is a mechanical disadvantage.  The HC  itself is also at a mechanical disadvantage,geared 3:1.  One turn of the hand crank makes three stitches and the hook spins around 6 times.
     The 115 has no gears at all and by the use of the hesitation rotary action of the hook, it spins only one turn per stitch.
There is little coasting when I stop treadling my 201K-3, while with the 115 treadle, I must stop the sm with the hand wheel or it will keep on coasting into next Tuesday.  Here are some weights of my sm...
Farmer John

101-11  aluminum in BW case, controller, etc        30.0 pounds
99K            "            "                          "                 23.2      "   (foot controller)
206K43      "            "                         "                 32.8      "
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ke6cvh

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Hi Farmer John,  

  That is really useful information about the added drag on the 201k...thanks.  My White F.R. is a similar setup to the  115 but I need to look under it to confirm I'm almost positive zero gears like the 115.  And the greater proportion of hand wheel turns to hook means the weight of the hand wheel carries more punch inertia for sewing medium work clothes/medium weight material.  I really like our White FR treadle.  It is a real pleasure to use and a real bargain out there amongst vintage machines typically.  It's too bad they did away with the belt groove in effort to look modern on the later White Rotary machines making them unable to mount in a treadle in stock form.

Best regards,
Mike


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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #12 
Farmer John, Thank you for info. I learned something. I am wondering benefit of 2x 201 hook speed, and more about 115 hesitation rotation. When working with 115, noticed rotation speed seemed to vary, but unsure.

I will measure cast iron 101 today, only head. Then add to above list with aluminum info too.

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer John
...101-11  aluminum in BW case, controller, etc        30.0 pounds
99K            "            "                          "                 23.2      "   (foot controller)
206K43      "            "                         "                 32.8      "


I'm doing an Excel spreadsheet so that I can sort by different properties. Does only the 99K have a foot controller?

Janey



ETA - Kitcarlson You have the 201 hand crank duplicated with the same weight of 40.2 pounds.

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Chaly

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6cvh
Hi Farmer John,  

   ... And the greater proportion of hand wheel turns to hook means the weight of the hand wheel carries more punch inertia for sewing medium work clothes/medium weight material...
Best regards,
Mike




I am understanding your "punch inertia" to mean piercing power?  I've not had the pleasure to use a 115 nor a White FR but have heard great info about both.  I do experience difference in piercing power in my machines and when comparing my Singer 101 with the 201 potted motor the difference is very obvious (and demonstrable) that 201 has more piecing power.   Not sure if this difference is a global one for these models or just my machines.  But now that the design/engineering characteristics have been so detailed (thank you Farmer John!) I am wondering.

I never paid much attention to this before other than recognizing I wouldn't use my featherweight for certain tasks.  The 201 is really a heavy machine in comparison to the others - any operating advantage to this?

Question to the group:  Can piecing power be objectively measured with some type of pressure tool?  It seems possible - or maybe this has been done?  I think this would be valuable information to have for vintage machines - along the same line as speed, etc.  

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #15 
Hi Chaly,

  For example we now have two Singer model no. 2 machines here.  One is for leather and has a larger diameter hand wheel and also heavier as a result.  Most of the weight is towards the outer circumference of the wheel to give more punching power also with the spokes just holding that weight on the outside effectively.  If the hand wheel was turning very slowly the inertia would be less.  If the hand wheel was turning faster the inertia would be greater.  Over the years I mostly owned 4 wheel drive vehicles.  When in low 4 wheel drive my torque was much greater.  That is because the engine and drivetrain had to turn much more (and faster) for a given turn of the wheels being driven.  Same concept.  If the hand wheel is turning faster for each turn of the hook (subsitute wheel for hook in a 4 wheel drive) then the torque would be higher and also the energy being stored in the turning portion of the machine (substitute transmission/engine/driveline for sewing machine).  So if the hand wheel turned 1 time per revolution of hook compared to hand wheel turning 1/3 time per revolution of hook or less than one would have less torque and stored energy.  

Best regards,
Mike
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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #16 
Edited :

Chaly, About 101 vs 201 power. Both both have potted motor, motor rotor adds significant inertia as motor drives hand wheel. The one way clutch serves to isolate rotor inertia and coast down, making stopping of the machine responsive. Later belt drive motors sometimes have a brake function, when power is cut. I checked needle bar, and hook movements on both machines, hooks 2x hand wheel, needle bars up and down once per revolution.
About measuring needle pressure, that might be difficult. Strain sensors could be integrated into needle bar but electrical sensor data would need to be transfered. The problem is dynamic, pressure varies with material, ramping up density in a controlled way, difficult. Adding layers, but at some point running out of presser foot height


My wife sews heavy tote bags with durable inner and outer fabrics with, internal interfacing designed for stiffness. She said both machines work with ease, even in corner overlaps.

Singer controllers have "full on" contact when fully driven. The contacts can become bent, eroded, or out of adjustment. My guess, possibility limiting your 101.

I found a cast iron 101 head weighs 30.2 lbs.

I also weighed various controllers. I will update & fix list tonight when I get back to my country house.


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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #17 
Chaly, Rethinking measuring needle pressure measurement. Using piezo sensor on needle plate, with close proximity of needle hole. The needle plate supports material, since not moving, a better choice. There are thin polymers that change resistance with pressure, others change capacitance or generate electric potential. There would be work involved in relating measurements to real needle pressures.
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Chaly

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Reply with quote  #18 
All this is good to know and I'm glad to hear the issue I'm describing may be specific to my 101.  I have yet to work or check on my controller so once I do I'll take photos and and post in the Singer 101 thread.

I'll attach a photo to show where my 101 was having troubles.  I was making a a bunch of zipper bags with leather corner protectors.  My 101 could not handle this seam where my 201 (same leather needle and thread) handled this with no complaints.  Even when I tried to manually move the hand wheel, the 101 would not budge over this seam.

I understand about the inertia and torque.  I'm sure upon design work and defined specs for each model these performance characteristics were worked out by each manufacturer.  Just like a car - if it is not in prime condition, it will not meet its performance characteristics.  So, independent of the design features, what really matters is current state of operation.  For now I just have my own experience to go on since it appears there is no easy way to measure this pressure. 

This thread has been a great source of info for me - thanks all!
zipper pouch.jpg 

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #19 
Just as a casual observation:  I wouldn't think that whether or not the controller is reaching "fully closed" when pushed all the way down would have much bearing on the relative lack of piercing power that Chaly is observing.  I doubt very much that she's pushing the pedal all the way down when she notices the lack of power, just like I might notice that my car is more sluggish than my van when going up a hill, even though I'm not "flooring" either one.

paul
who hopes to sew with his 101 someday soon

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Kitcarlson

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Chaly, My wife said she sewed up to about 9 layers of fabric plus quilt batting whe sewing wrap around straps on tote with pockets and other seams combined. She also said the leather might be different. She has a Singer 7 industrial for doing leather car upholstery.

The 101 hand wheel is small to grip, the bobbin winder in the way too. The 201 has better advantage when turning by hand.
The motor control is a series resistance, droping both voltage and current at motor, both reduce available torque at motor.

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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #21 
Chaly, Sewing machine motors are universal motors. They have brushes, field windings are in series with armature, with controller also in series. Unlike a gasoline engine, electric motor develops maximum torque at zero speed. The torque is high, because motor current is high. As motor increases, it actually generates back emf, reducing current.

Current is limited by circuit impedance, when AC powered. Impedance is the combined effect series resistance and reactance of windings. Yes, malfunction in controller, such as not bypassing, will limit piercing power.

Brush assemblies pass current to armature. Brush holders make contact with brushes. When servicing motor, brush holders should be cleaned to remove oil varnish, same with sides of brushes. I use 91% isopropyl alcohol and Qtips. Varnish in brush assemblies greatly increases resistance, and ability after brush to float freely to maintain contact to commutator. Problem symptoms may include, brush arcing, smoke, sme

Winding turn short, in field or armature windings will greatly reduce performance, and result in safety issues. Symptoms may include humming or growling, arcing at brushes. Shorts on armature will show as pits on related commutator segments.

A ammeter can be used to verify motor reaches rated current.

If all is well, enjoy sewing where 101 is happy.



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Deb Milton

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Reply with quote  #22 
Kitcarlson

Since I am not electrically inclined about 40% of that went over my head on the first two readings, but the 60% I did understand was very helpful. It gave me more things to look for when initially evaluating a machine. Thanks for that.
I am mostly lurking and learning from all of you, especially when it comes to the electrical. Thanks to you all.

Deb

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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #23 
Deb, Thank you for kind words. I might start a new post with more information on motors, lights and wiring practices. Your idea of evaluation is great, so there will be information on testing and safety evaluations.
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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #24 
List has been updated.  Thank you all, for corrections and additional machine info.  
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Chaly

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitcarlson
Chaly, Sewing machine motors are universal motors. They have brushes, field windings are in series with armature, with controller also in series. Unlike a gasoline engine, electric motor develops maximum torque at zero speed. The torque is high, because motor current is high. As motor increases, it actually generates back emf, reducing current.

Current is limited by circuit impedance, when AC powered. Impedance is the combined effect series resistance and reactance of windings. Yes, malfunction in controller, such as not bypassing, will limit piercing power.

Brush assemblies pass current to armature. Brush holders make contact with brushes. When servicing motor, brush holders should be cleaned to remove oil varnish, same with sides of brushes. I use 91% isopropyl alcohol and Qtips. Varnish in brush assemblies greatly increases resistance, and ability after brush to float freely to maintain contact to commutator. Problem symptoms may include, brush arcing, smoke, sme

Winding turn short, in field or armature windings will greatly reduce performance, and result in safety issues. Symptoms may include humming or growling, arcing at brushes. Shorts on armature will show as pits on related commutator segments.

A ammeter can be used to verify motor reaches rated current.

If all is well, enjoy sewing where 101 is happy.




After thinking about this, I can't say the issue I've experienced of different performance between my 101 and 201 is a problem with the 101 or due to design differences.  I think the only way I could fairly rule out a motor or controller issue would be to swap these with my 201 and compare.  

I thoroughly cleaned and assessed my 101 motor - the commutator cleaned up beautifully, the brushes were good (I did a good clean with alcohol before reusing) and visually the windings looked fine.  The motor works fine with no noise issues or stalling etc.  I have not gone through the controller and this I will eventually do but everything is working fine - very nicely responsive -just the piercing power using leather did not equal what my 201 could do.

I agree, that if the motor is not performing at optimum then this could indeed impact how the machine runs.  For now, I'll just not be sewing leather on my 101 and will enjoy the great precision and wonderful sewing experience this machine gives.

It's just interesting for me to compare models performance wise and understand the engineering behind the differences.  I was discussing this tonight with my husband who studied physics and he also mentioned what you addressed - gasoline vs electric motors and the advantage electric has.

Many thanks for all your info and it would be great if you could start a post covering motors and wiring.  Most electric vintage machines need attention to the electrical components - lamp wiring, controllers, and motor.  And how to do an evaluation, as Deb referred, would be most useful for those without prior electrical experience.

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Kitcarlson

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Chaly,
I am working on motor post, need to get to other place, get motor, document process with pictures. It will be posted in "how to". My writing skills are poor, editing by others is welcome.

In thinking about my wife sewing with her 101. The heavier sewing was incremental. Sewing a few layers, at running speed, with inertia helping, with short sections of multiple layers. I also wonder if the 101 rating motor is 0.4A, with 201 0.6A. Years ago, my memory very good, need to check later.

There is a possibility to boost the 101. The motor voltage could be increased using step up transformer, or DC. Think there is wide range in spec. Need to see spec plate. I have considered developing a modern electronic control, differing from the off the shelf ones available. It would provide DC, use PWM for speed control. The high DC, would provide maximum torque, pulse width modulation for speed control ( control of on vs off pulses, in time).

The Singer 7 is stored in garage, would sell very reasonable. My wife used it to sew BMW M6 seats. It has walking foot, considered strongest machine. Dates back to WWI, tarp making, leather strapping.

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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #27 
I checked 101 name plate, current rating of 101 motor is 0.6A, like most others. The voltage rating 100 to 110V, lower range than expected. That puts an end to boosting voltage per comments above.
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Reply with quote  #28 
A couple more weights.  The 99 might be redundant, but it's on a display base, so was very easy to do.  And I doubt you expected the NF, but again, a display base made it easy.  (All my contributions were weight with a digital spring hook scale.)

1941 Singer 99K hand crank          20.1lbs
1871 New Family, with belt guard   16.2lbs

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #29 
My 206K with motor and table top base, but less the bentwood, top weighs 40 lb 6 oz.  Quite a beast to pick up!

Peter
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Reply with quote  #30 
Thanks for this! I just picked up a 1921 hand crank 66K with BWC in the UK for a whopping $50. Was wondering what it weighed so I could work out how to get it home. This is a great starting point. I think I shall have to fly to the UK and use my luggage allowance to bring it back. 
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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #31 
Singer 201k aluminum w/hand crank 19.6 lbs
Will update list on weekend.

Thank you for all replies, please post more if you have them.

Pgf, your weights seem 8 to 10 lbs light. Do you have know weights to verify?
Note: I was wrong about weights, not sure why I thought they were off.

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Reply with quote  #32 
I'll recheck.  On one of them I noticed the scale had reverted to kg, and I (thought I had) corrected it, but maybe not.

paul

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgf
A couple more weights.  The 99 might be redundant, but it's on a display base, so was very easy to do.  And I doubt you expected the NF, but again, a display base made it easy.  (All my contributions were weight with a digital spring hook scale.)

1941 Singer 99K hand crank          20.1lbs
1871 New Family, with belt guard   16.2lbs


I've re-verified these, and checked my scale.  These are both head only -- no base/case/etc.

I also weighed my 1931 101, and got 31lbs, which is close to your spreadsheet number (30.2).

Why do you think I'm off by 8 to 10 lbs?

paul

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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #34 
pgf wrote : "Why do you think I'm off by 8 to 10 lbs?"

Because I was wrong.  More proof my mind is slipping.

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Reply with quote  #35 
Not slipping.  Too busy with more important things.  That's what I say, anyway...
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Kitcarlson

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Reply with quote  #36 
Weather, bad air quality in TN, tomorrow 100 days above 90F this year.
Note: Only 99 days, today nice!

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Kitcarlson

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List has been updated _r3 in first post.  Thank you all, for corrections and additional machine info.  
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