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WI Lori

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Reply with quote  #1 
I found this chart at http://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/28/

Main Model Characteristics

CharacteristicVS1VS2VS32728127128
        
Head Front Access DoorNoYesYesYesYesYesYes
Tension ReleaseThumb plateThumb plateThumb plateThumb plateThumb plateAutoAuto
Stitch Adj.BedPillarPillarPillarPillarPillarPillar
Bed ShapeRect.FiddleRect.Rect.Rect.Rect.Rect.
Bed Width14-5/8"14-5/8"12-5/32"14-5/8"12-5/32"14-5/8"12-5/32"
Bed Depth7"7"6-9/16"7"6-9/16"7"6-9/16"
Harp Width8"8"6-1/2"8"6-1/2"8"6-1/2"
Bobbin Winderlowlowlowlowlowhighhigh
Ejector ButtonNoNoNoNoNoYesYes

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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #2 
Harp width as measured from the needle on a VS2 is 7-15/16", but who's counting? [biggrin]
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macybaby

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Reply with quote  #3 
the important part - do I have one of each?

Interesting that it has the bed shape for the VS1 as rectangular,  because I've got a VS1 that is fiddle base.   It's also got narrower slides than the others,  and takes a different shuttle.

The VS 3 appears to be a 3/4 version of the VS 2,  and that is something I don't have.   Except possibly because my oldest 28 might be old enough to be considered a VS3. 


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WI Lori

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Reply with quote  #4 
Things may be different across the pond! :)

With as many changes as Singer made within a model, and in transitioning models, perhaps you have a missing link or two.

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Farmer John

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Reply with quote  #5 
I don't know if it is correct, but another characteristic of the V series is the elongated rear cover plate, while the model 27 has the typical plated round cover.  I have met people who are adamant that both styles are model 27, but I am not swayed.  The VS2 was fiddle base until 1891 its last year.  My 1892 VS2 has a rectangular bed and an elongated cast iron rear cover (pictured).100_1094.jpg 
I don't think that I own a VS1, as I understand they are difficult to find.
John

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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WI Lori
Things may be different across the pond! 😉 With as many changes as Singer made within a model, and in transitioning models, perhaps you have a missing link or two.


More likely someone just rounded up a sixteenth!

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer John
I don't know if it is correct, but another characteristic of the V series is the elongated rear cover plate, while the model 27 has the typical plated round cover. John


I have two 1899 28 machines.  Actually they are most probably 28K because American made machines are seldom seen here in South Africa.  Both have the elongated cover plate.

Peter
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Farmer John

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Reply with quote  #8 
Peter, help me out here, I am having a senior moment.  When was the VS3 officially called a 28 ?  In Lori's chart, the two models have the same characteristics.  I looked in Singers serial number chart to find that there is no model designation up to 1899. Wikipedia has lots of info under "singer 27, with charts, etc, but that didn't help either. What are the defining features of your 28 or  28k that would make it different from a VS3.  My only example is s/n 8620716 from 1889, that I have been calling a VS3.
John
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #9 
Just noticed this thread. The list doesn't include the 2 types of vs1 or the 3 types of vs2. Don't go by this chart. This is to the best of his knowledge and he is trying. I have not been able to help him with the pictures or this list yet, just finishing the clean up and rebuild from flood last year. Always verify the info with other lists. The two vs1 types are the 1884 vs1 with the odd patent tensioner on the block faceplate (cast) then the regular disk patent tensioner 1885. For the vs2 1886 has the for electric plain faceplate with the auto winder, the regular iron cast faceplate with side disk tension for treadle 1886-1887/1888(with or without auto winder) then the regular plain nickel faceplate1889-1891(3). The early vs2 will have a "bolt" looking item at the top and oil hole in the stitch length knob. That is just some of the variants on the fiddlebase, let alone 1885 gold decals etc. Within Singer's records this series is just a vs machine for the first 4 types1884-1887(8) and vs2 starting 1889. I am still currently trying to assemble a list of all the electrical engines available on the 1886 and up platform, there are several both contained within the Singer brass housing and not. They all use Deihl"s patent for the electric engine and instaled by the local "electrifier". The base electric vs came with the actuator, machine, and stand. They are not as rare as you would think, i have 2. The 1886 electric has the patent 86 oct.16th on the bobbin cover and used the 8227 shuttle ( non- "wasp waist"). All of them i have seen have the auto winder. I think i gave Steve some of the info, but was incomplete, i can't remember off hand.

That site also has a very good list of attachments, but still missing a lot of info there as well. A good site to browse.

If anyone needs info on their strange Singer vs machine , just ask. I will supply the info and references after i have published them. Sorry no info on the engines given at this time.
  John Stuart
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #10 
Farmer John, Singer called it a vs3, then a vs3/28 ,then a 28 , and finally a 128 in North American markets. Same with the full size vs series machines. Different markets had different booklets stating differing machines though and i think the Kilbowie factory had them listed on their manual as only a 27 or 28 before Montreal and Elizabethport dropped the term vs2/3 for only 27/28. No web site on the internet has all of the information, here is an example of missing info IMG_0257.jpg 

  John Stuart

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Farmhousesewer

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Reply with quote  #11 
Looks like some of this information is from Needlebar.org :
http://needlebar.org/main/singervs/index.html

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Peter

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer John
Peter, help me out here, I am having a senior moment.  When was the VS3 officially called a 28 ?John


I don't know John.  I have in fact been working from the Needlebar chart that John Stuart mentions.  My first machine is S/N 16157546 and from that chart it is an "early" 28-1 handcrank with plain nickel faceplate.  However, the spool pin area is not the raised boss that the chart picture shows, but flat like the 28-2 picture.  From memory the other machine is the same.  It is out in my wife's weaving studio and we have locked up for the night, so I will take a look in the morning.

Peter
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #13 
Peter if it has the elongated rear cover plate, it is most likely a vs3. If you look at the needlebar info they show that one first and have a picture of the back plate in the "rear view". There could be a possibility that it may have come from the Montreal factory that was also in the Commonwealth. The elongated plate should not be confused with the slightly later "kidney" shape one that is before the round nickel one.

  John Stuart
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Ericka

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Reply with quote  #14 
John, I've never seen a manual for a Style 12 puzzle box, at least I assume the manual in your pic is for a puzzle box.  Would you mind scanning some or all of it and posting it here somewhere?  I don't want to hijack this thread, but attachments are my main interest and, like I said, I can't recall ever seeing that particular manual.

Thanks,
Ericka
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #15 
we have the VS2 puzzlebox manual scanned here
http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/singer-vs2-attachments-manual-1888-7958658

Manual #7 for the VS2 is here
http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/singer-vs2-attachment-manual-7-8510707



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Ericka

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for the reply, Steve.  The first link that you have is for the first style of puzzle box, what most refer to as a Style 1.  The second link that you have is for a Style 7 manual puzzle box.  I've got a copy of the Style 1 manual, and I have originals of my own for the Style 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 14 (shows a metal tin, not a wooden puzzle box).  I also know there was a manual for the Style 24 puzzle box, which contained attachments for the Singer 24 machine.  But I've never seen a manual that was for a Style 12 set of attachments, so I am dying to know what that set consists of and if it was contained in a wooden puzzle box or something else.  I'm hoping that John can appease my curiosity.

Thanks, Ericka
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #17 
Sorry Ericka i forgot to mention it is for a puzzle tin. This will be made available to the Victorian Sweatshop for sure, i just have to create a good PDF file for Steve. It will also be published through ISMACS as well and be given to the singersewinginfo site soon to. This was just to illustrate there is a lot of information still missing on these machines and there are errors, even at the Smithsonian. It is always good to look at several sources. Two members here have noticed errors in the first post alone.

  John Stuart

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstuart
... This will be made available to the Victorian Sweatshop for sure, i just have to create a good PDF file for Steve. ...
This was just to illustrate there is a lot of information still missing on these machines and there are errors, even at the Smithsonian. ...

  John Stuart


Thank you, John. I'm looking forward to another style of attachments pdf.

I'm curious as to errors "even at the Smithsonian." I understand typos in catalogs, but since they are scanned from original documents. I would think there wouldn't be blatant errors.

The parts for the VS3 1890 and image of back plate #2 "arm side plate" ?? is on page 3 of SIL10-1770-01a

Janey

ETA: The link for the VS3 parts is http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Sewing-Machines/NMAHTEX/1770/index.htm

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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #19 
Yes the documents are original at the Smithsonian, but listed with errors. A Letter a sales brochure from 1968 for instance. There are some that have wrong dates and wrong machines.

  John Stuart
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter


I don't know John.  I have in fact been working from the Needlebar chart that John Stuart mentions.  My first machine is S/N 16157546 and from that chart it is an "early" 28-1 handcrank with plain nickel faceplate.  However, the spool pin area is not the raised boss that the chart picture shows, but flat like the 28-2 picture.  From memory the other machine is the same.  It is out in my wife's weaving studio and we have locked up for the night, so I will take a look in the morning.

Peter


I misread the serial number, it is 16137546 (not 57).  It has the cast metal decal carrying rear plate, and no country of origin decal.

The second machine is serial number 16123639 and is identical except that it was "Made in Great Britain".  There is only a difference of 13907 in the serial numbers, which suggests to me that they came from the same factory - Kilbowie.

Peter
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #21 
Needlebar also has a picture of a 28-2 that has what you describe under the spool pin here, http://needlebar.org/cm/displayimage.php?album=64&pid=245#top_display_media , and then states it is also called a vs3. I always go by the back plate long is vs3, kidney is vs3/28 and the round is 28. I think where the problem arises is in the manuals. In the UK they used 27/28 for the vs2/27 and vs3/28 on the manuals the states had.

I have seen the vs2 with a bolt under the spool pin, the flat and the regular round with the arm contour types.

So the next step would be to call singer and ask them to look up what factory it came from and notes if any. If that doesn't work i might have to ask for the entire singer numbers from a museum.

  John Stuart
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #22 
Here is my example of the painted face plate vs2 that are not mentioned in lists. This is not a vs1 here is a picture IMG_0272.jpg  and the painted faceplate IMG_0276.jpg  It is number 7068860 from 1886.

  John Stuart

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warp7wvr

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstuart
Sorry Ericka i forgot to mention it is for a puzzle tin. This will be made available to the Victorian Sweatshop for sure, i just have to create a good PDF file for Steve. It will also be published through ISMACS as well and be given to the singersewinginfo site soon to. This was just to illustrate there is a lot of information still missing on these machines and there are errors, even at the Smithsonian. It is always good to look at several sources. Two members here have noticed errors in the first post alone.

  John Stuart


Hi John, It’s so interesting to see the cover of the Style No 12 tin box. Does the inside show a picture of the attachments in the tin?
Thanks, Peggy
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #24 
The style 12 shows the items being used only. It doesn't have a picture of them sitting inside the tin.

  John Stuart
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warp7wvr

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Reply with quote  #25 
Thanks for the reply John Stuart. Do you see any difference in the attachments as they are shown, from those in the Style No 11 in the wooden box, or those used in the Style No 14 tin box? I’m so curious about that Style No 12. I’ve never seen it before. I’m wondering how to tell a Style 12 from a Style 14 tin. Which attachment might be different?
Thanks, Peggy
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #26 
Hi Peggy, sorry for the late answer here. There is a big difference from the style 11 to the style 12. The style 12 has bed braider and a bed plate to go with the ruffler, what we call a shirring plate now. They called the plate a seperator plate in the manual. The ruffler is the "Johnston ruffler" type used in the style 9. The style 12 shows the plates as square. I also have the same set of plates from my second machine of 1886 for the vs2 fiddlebase. Both machines they were found with were the "HO" highly ornamented machines. The 1886 was the roses set and the one i found the style 12 manual with was the dogwood decal set.

The style 14 tin and the style 12 tin are the same shape and size and ALL of the attachments are different. The 12 tin has 2 hinges and same closing clasp, the style 14 has a single large centered hinge and same closing clasp. Both have purple velvet interiors.

It is my opinion that the plates for the vs2 may be from styles 4,5,6. I may have one of these instead of the style 12. The square plates did come from the machine the manual came from , the dogwood 1895. The manual is 1895 as well and the previous owner did get this with this machine and was told was original from the first owner in that family. It is also my opinion that style 4 and 12 were the "Johnston" type , the 5 and maybe 13(unknown) were the Singer ruffler set and the 6 and 14 were Griest.

  John Stuart
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #27 
I forgot to say one difference between the style 14 and the style 12 is the ruffler. The style 12 has the same "Johnston" ruffler as the style 9 and the 14 has the new Griest type with the flip out shearing. The one that i got with the tin originally was the Griest type with the flip button on top like the style 10 wood puzzle box and had the fiddle base plates. My tin also has the older type Griest ( i think) hemmer set. The style 12 has the similar set of hemmers like the style 14, and are bed hemmers, not feet. My nerves are good today so i am taking pictures the tripod couldn't do.

  John Stuart
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #28 
IMG_0311.jpg  IMG_0318.jpg  IMG_0319.jpg  IMG_0320.jpg  IMG_0321.jpg  IMG_0322.jpg  IMG_0323.jpg  Couldn't quite get the full pages in one click, i would need to get the other better camera fixed. Here is the manual 12. IMG_0304.jpg  IMG_0305.jpg  IMG_0306.jpg  IMG_0307.jpg  IMG_0308.jpg  IMG_0309.jpg  IMG_0310.jpg   
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #29 
I don't know if that will really do. Here is what i think might be the style 5 tin. IMG_0325.jpg  and here is the picture of the ruffler and plates that came with this tin IMG_0330.jpg  If you will note the thumb pull on the plates. This is like the thumb pulls on the other square set found in the style 12 underbraider, that i forgot to take a picture of. The next picture shows  the other implements out of the tin IMG_0328.jpg  The regular foot is the one depicted in the style 12 as well. Note the open quilting foot! It is the sum of the parts that makes these different. The hemmers are different from the style 11, but are adjustable also. The tucker is Griest and is shown in the style 12 manual as well.

Style 14 is a different Greist set all together. I thought they were the same tin size, but the style 14 is slightly larger. Here is a picture of the 14 set IMG_0347.jpg 
This set has similar bed hemmers like the Johnston set in the style 12 manual. I say it is a Johnston set due to the ruffler depicted in the manual. I have 3 differently marked rufflers of the "style 9 type Johnston" ruffler. One early in brass with less Patent dates, one marked Singer vs2, and the last marked singer only. I think the Singer only is after market and not bought originally in a set. The brass one "should" be the one that is found in the thick cardboard black or purple box in North America and marked for singer VS/IF/IM with or without HO ( highly ornamented). I am substituting the plain singer in my style 9 right now. The singer vs2 one is depicted in my 1889 manual that shows if there with both vs2 types that predates the wooden puzzle boxes.

  John Stuart - at least these puzzles are in a velvet lining

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warp7wvr

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Reply with quote  #30 
Hi John Stuart, Intriguing and enlightening! Thank you so much for your clear descriptions and the photos. This is a good study. I’ll get back. Peggy
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #31 

For fun let's add serial number 16113397 (Later 1899) to the mix. Kidney-shaped cast inspection plate, two spool pins, leather bobbin Winder wheel, smooth face plate.

I'd still call this a vs3

20190216_150713-600x800.jpg  20190216_150550-800x600.jpg  20190216_150606-800x600.jpg  20190216_150726-600x800.jpg  20190216_150618-800x600.jpg  20190216_150533-800x600.jpg  20190216_150821-600x800.jpg  20190216_150633-600x800.jpg  20190216_150703-800x600.jpg 



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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #32 
Based on the angle and location in the middle of the decal I suspect that the second spool pin was a customer addition.
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #33 
I have similar of one of my vs3 machine. The spool pin is in the precise same location. This one is in the convertable portable/treadle case here IMG_0298.jpg  as opposed to this one with out the hole for the belt here and a 28.IMG_0462.jpg  My vs3 is 8750953 ( i think hard to tell last 3 digits due to rust pits) from 1889 as your's is Steve. My Vs3 however has 1886 in the bobbin plate, but that is hard to tell as well. The later 28 has a factory replacement front and after market part back bobbin plate and is 1908 and E or K factory, not R. Canada had different regulation on patents at the time, being able to use older patents for the same propose. Examples are the use of the 8327 shuttle and the VS165 bobbin. There are auto winders up here that use the vs1 bobbin and wind heavy at the ends due to the extra traveling distance of the arm on the winder shown here if using the regular "class 27 " bobbin.IMG_0549 (2).jpg  This picture is lined up with a plum bob at 90 deg. to the machine deck, is not bent and shows no other deformations.

Also i think Singer world wide tried to make the factories more similar again in 1889 and had reissued the vs2 in several languages for that years instruction manual for refurbished/upgraded machines 1886-1889. The 1889 reissue manual in English and German have both types of VS2 shown here https://www.flickr.com/photos/132113927@N03/29959540090/in/dateposted-public/lightbox/ . The new version is on the front cover and the painted faceplate type is shown inside as well as the old 8327 shuttle to cover factory converted machines. The 1st issue of electric controller would warrant this as it was not permanent/ not serviceable, of which i have an example and only one known or seen out of the patent drawing. No Singer manual so far has shown this controller, only the later one issued in 1886 (same year) that is the big box at the back of the machine.

In short my theory is Canada/England/Germany etc.. could use the 1886 plate because the new machine casting is patented in 1889 Elizabethport, depicting the change from the kidney to round access. This is also the turning point in history where the US started world dominance in trade, not gained world dominance though, and how/why by legal patent laws over many products. This also gives rise to the modern problem between England and North American of this class. England has the vs3, 28 and 128, while we have the vs3, vs3/28, 28 and 128 and similar to the 27 types.

  John Stuart

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David

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH-VSS
Based on the angle and location in the middle of the decal I suspect that the second spool pin was a customer addition.


I don't know Steve I see the same pin placement on this machine:

https://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/28/

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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #35 
I have never found a reference to why these are like this. You can wind a bobbin with one spool pin, why two. I thought originally it was for two colors of thread on the top using the same path, but then i have an 1885 If with same two spools, but two thread paths here IMG_0067.jpg  and the faceplate IMG_0069.jpg  Our 1889 vs3/28's have only one thread path, i have never seen instructions for this ever for both systems( IF and vs3/28)

  John Stuart

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #36 
based on that I will rethink that second pins origin. I am still looking for a correct crank arm and door handle for it. I'm getting one of the boxy coffin looking cases from Mike for this. But he only has the later style bent metal arm with wooden handle. I am getting that for my 48k which was missing that arm and handle
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #37 
imagejpeg_0.jpg 

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MRT

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Reply with quote  #38 
I’m curious about the looped screwdrivers shown in the style 1 - style 7 boxes. I have not seen any real pictures of those looped screwdrivers. Did they actually exist?
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WI Lori

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Reply with quote  #39 
Simanco part #25537

Attached Images
jpeg IMG_20190312_082518499.jpg (85.45 KB, 1 views)


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Lori in Wisconsin

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Janeiac

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Reply with quote  #40 
With a second spool pin, you can wind a bobbin while sewing instead of having to stop.
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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #41 
I just don't see how on a VS 2 / VS3 or any of the other vs Singer machines. I can see how the thread path goes on a 66 or 15, but not a Singer VS. The thread path for the top stitch uses the same path as the bobbin winding. I have also never seen instruction in any manuals stating this.

  John Stuart
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Ericka

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Reply with quote  #42 
The early "looped" screwdrivers do exist, but are extremely hard to find.  Here's a set that I have, but they're not in the best condition: Looped Screwdriver Set.jpg 
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