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Madmurdock75

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Reply with quote  #51 
I wish someone would write about it. I had the worst time figuring out what was what between my two, since they are COMPLETELY different.

My 1874 is quite loud compared to the later one, and it does appear to be related to the different shuttle carrier, but I can't find anything that looks broken or out of place, so maybe the older ones were just louder?

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #52 
I recalled that I've posted pictures of my shuttle carrier before, back when I wanted to be sure it was complete before investing in a replacement for my missing shuttle.  Those pictures are in this post:

http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/singer-new-family-model-1212k-shuttle-question-9732453?pid=1304133492

But from what I'm reading so far in this conversation, it sounds like my machine is fine, and the back-and-forth motion of the shuttle in the carrier is normal, at least for this particular machine style.  Is that right?

paul

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Reply with quote  #53 
My machine is the same type, but i have a different carrier, same shuttle. I can point out a similar instance for the singer number 2. There were 5 different shuttles, each having a different carrier. They are the same type, a singer number 2, but have differing carriers and standard shuttles.

I don't have as much knowledge as others in the singer new family/ singer 12 line, but i do know there are several types. I found at the Smithsonian (SIL10-1775-10a) that has 4 types of shuttles. Listed is part 48 solid point seems to be one for the shuttle carrier you have. 48 1/2 is the indented point. 48b is the butt latch type and 48d is self threading. (hmm, my New Williams tailor machine is also self threading..from 1883"ish" or so they say!!! Yup i thread it by "self" alright)

You have a "48 1/2" type shuttle, not all are marked, later ones are marked with the part number.

  John Stuart
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #54 
My shuttle is unmarked -- I got it from Helen Howes, which isn't germane, but I figured I'd give her a plug.  :-)

From discussion in that earlier thread that I linked to, it sounded like all shuttle types work in all variants of the New Family / Mode 12 series.  Is that your impression as well?

paul

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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #55 
LOL, Helen is cool and has lots of great stuff. My take on shuttles is unclear after your ordeal of it not making well formed stitches. In the video you recently made, the shuttle seems to stop where the loop would be picked up. What is not taken into account in the video is the top and bottom threads, in particular, the shuttle tensioned thread. At :17 we see the shuttle go to the right to pick up the loop, what would the tension in the shuttle be doing to the shuttle? It will be always straining towards the last made thread pulling the shuttle in that direction, until it relaxes the thread at the point where it pauses again at :22 when the movement of the carrier pushes the 1/8" the other way. The result is no tension in the bottom thread at the point where it pauses for the carrier to catch up going the other way.

I also noticed you have an additional, what seems to be, an oil hole, near the far left of the race way and something under the bobbin cover plate left side. Mine has none like that. This is getting more interesting maybe.

I also looked at my C W Williams machine and that carrier has the similar look of your machine's, but with the spring that goes under the right screw. Maybe you have a C W Williams carrier from Montreal. It has no clip for the indent shuttle as well. Here is a "rusticle" picture of the carrier in that IMG_0599 (2).jpg 

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Madmurdock75

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Reply with quote  #56 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgf
My shuttle is unmarked -- I got it from Helen Howes, which isn't germane, but I figured I'd give her a plug.  :-)

From discussion in that earlier thread that I linked to, it sounded like all shuttle types work in all variants of the New Family / Mode 12 series.  Is that your impression as well?

paul


My two have different shuttles, but I haven't tried to interchange them.

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #57 
Well, I haven't had time to do any more diagnostics on my New Family's stitching problem.  But I did want to display the machine, rather than keeping it in the cellar.  The problem is that with the (very cool) flip-out treadle top, if you want it open for display purposes you effectively double the required floor space.  Our livingroom just couldn't oblige.  So I made a simple display base for the machine head.  I repurposed an old piece of butcher block countertop.  The cutout is almost a direct tracing of the treadle top's cutout.

bases_1.jpg bases_2.jpg


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WI Lori

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Reply with quote  #58 
I like this!
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #59 
[ several months go by...]

Okay, having made a nice display base for my New Family, I was able to forget about the fact that it doesn't sew correctly for as long as it took me to get down near the bottom of my sewing machine work queue ("fun queue" -- it's not really work, I guess).

When we last left our story it seemed that my side-to-side shuttle play was probably okay.  And indeed, I've now shown that it is, indeed, okay.

But there were two other things wrong:

First, somewhat embarrassingly, the needle was in backwards.  This certainly explains the skipped stitches I was seeing.  It makes stitches just fine now.

But second, although the side to side shuttle play is okay, I also have a lot of play in the vertical direction.  What I thought was a needle collision of some sort was actually the forward end of the shuttle's springy thread guide colliding with the lower left edge (facing the machine) of the feed dogs, as it moves from left to right.  Raising the feed dogs to their highest setting doesn't help.  I've managed to prevent the collision (which was happening on almost every stitch) by attaching a small piece of felt to the underside of the needle plate, right beside the feed dogs.  You can see the green felt in the attached picture.

Is there supposed to be something like that felt in the shuttle's path to help control its motion?

The other possible reason for the collision is that the spring thread guide on the shuttle seems awfully loose.  The rear end of that spring is obviously meant to be loose, since it's just a bent end that tucks into a larger hole.  But the forward end is riveted, and I'm wondering if it should be a tight rivet?  Mine is not -- you can see the play in this short video:
 
    https://www.foxharp.boston.ma.us/tmp/z/shuttle.webm

I don't know if tightening it would fix the collision problem or not, and I'm certainly not going to modify my only, very expensive, shuttle to find out.  At least not without more information.  :-)

paul

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jpeg IMG_20181028_110222860.jpg (541.69 KB, 16 views)


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Farmhousesewer

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Reply with quote  #60 
Paul,
I don't know anything about this particular machine, but i have never seen a spring that loose.

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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #61 
Paul, the rivet should be tight. All of my shuttles that are similar from different makes are as well. That spring should be what keeps the shuttle in place instead of the felt doing so. The back and forth movement we were talking abut earlier is regulated by that spring. If it pivots, it could throw off the stitch. If it is really loose, it could make all sorts of wildly different stitches as the spring pivots with each stitch.

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #62 
Okay then!  A big hammer and a tiny anvil, or maybe vice versa, is called for.  Thanks.

paul

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #63 
Success!

I took a large drift punch, and mounted it horizontally in my vise.  The shaft was hexagonal, so it could be clamped securely, and the round business end was just the right diameter to fit into the curved interor of the forward end of the shuttle.

I could have used an extra hand: it was tricky holding the tack hammer in my right hand, and holding the punch in my left while also positioning the shuttle so the rivet was on top of the curvature of the end of the punch.  Should have taken a picture, but that might have required a fourth hand.  :-)

At any rate, I could tell it was working after one or two taps, and with three or four more the rivet was snug and the spring held properly in place.

And now my 1871 New Family can sew again!

Thanks for all of your collective advice -- I can't imagine taking up a hobby like this in pre-internet days.  (Actually, I can:  because I had several such projects fail or peter out in the 80s because I didn't have access to good advice, or easy access to parts, tools, etc.  This is so much better.)

paul

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ThayerRags

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Reply with quote  #64 
Glad that you got your machine going!  I agree with you that it’s really nice to have forums such as this one to help me learn about my sewing machines.  I’ve gotten so much information from others, and will no doubt get more as I keep reading.

It seems like about the time I get to thinking that I know my crap when it comes to sewing machines, I suddenly find out that that’s mostly all it is....just crap.  The things I don’t know amazes me sometimes, once I learn what I didn’t know about something.  Thanks to kind folks who keep lining me back out.

CD in Oklahoma


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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #65 
The only thing that I know, is that I know nothing at all!

The older I get, the dumber I become!

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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #66 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba
The only thing that I know, is that I know nothing at all!

The older I get, the dumber I become!


Exactly! Sometimes(not often though) I wish I was still a teenager so I would know everything again lol.

Cari

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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #67 
Yep!
When I was 18, I had it all figured out. I don't know what happened...

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PatriciaPf

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Reply with quote  #68 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba
The only thing that I know, is that I know nothing at all!

The older I get, the dumber I become!


It's the beginning of wisdom, Zorba.


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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #69 
Good to hear the shuttle is working out now Paul!! I still have to find a bobbin winder for my 1877 with the spring and tire. The same kind that is on your machine. Might have to find someone to make one unfortunately.

  John Stuart
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #70 
John -- I got my bobbin winder from Helen Howes at the same time she sent my my shuttle.  My machine came with the iron bracket for the winder, but no axle/wheel or spring.  I ordered a complete unit, since I wasn't sure a replacement axle/wheel would work in my bracket.  In fact, I was right to worry, and the fit of the axle was very tight in my bracket.  The finish on my bracket matches the rest of my machine better, so I did some work cleaning and polishing both the orifice and the new axle to make the fit better.  I'm almost there, just haven't gotten back to it.  If I'm successful, I'll have a spare bracket, and I'll drop you a line.

paul

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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #71 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriciaPf


It's the beginning of wisdom, Zorba.



So I'm told. I just feel dumb!

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Miriam

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Reply with quote  #72 
Me feel dumb, too. I can’t even paint with out making a big mess.
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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #73 
I hate painting. DETEST painting.
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #74 
Has anyone disassembled a Model 12 hand crank far enough to be able to tell me what the crank axle bolt looks like?  The attached picture is from an inexpensive 1889 Model 12 on ebay -- if that pin were easy enough to replace, I might go for it. (It's cosmetically "challenged" in other ways, but I think I could live with it.)  The problem will almost certainly be the thread pitch, so if anyone knows that, it would be especially useful.  They say the machine, which otherwise looks complete, turns over fine if the crank is hand-centered before trying to turn it.

Their full description of the problem:  "The machine does move when cranked, the only issue is that the handcrank is not centered. It seems as if there is a missing rod to keep the crank centered. If you hold it centered and wind it, the machine does move freely.  See side photo where you can see the gears. The handle is not centered. If you center it, you can see straight through where some sort of rod goes. "

Oh -- and I've looked for a Model 12 parts list/booklet online, but came up short.  Anyone have a pointer?

paul

missing_crank_axle.jpg


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Skipper

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Reply with quote  #75 
Here is a picture of the Hand Crank with center gear bolt. It is a threaded bolt with no nut on the other side. The threads on these is unique to Singer and you may have trouble finding one.DSCF2687.jpg

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Skipper

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Reply with quote  #76 
Here is what it looks like. I did not have the screw driver handy to take mine out for you to see. HC bolt 2019-02-08 001.jpg 

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David

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgf
... I might go for it. ...


Buy it!  You can get a tap and die set with just about any thread per inch count you could possibly need to make a new bolt for it.  I've cut several bolts for my machines.

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David
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #78 
Skipper -- thanks for the pic and drawings.  I've since found other pictures of the crank assembly as well, which all together give me an idea good idea of what the screw looks like, and how hard it would be to replace.

David -- I'm interested in where you're finding the taps and dies for non-standard thread pitches.

I'll let you all know if I get this machine.  It really is a bit beat-up, with lots of paint chipping and lots of decal wear.  And it's not local to me -- I'd have to ask one of my in-laws to pick it up for me.  And...  I already own a New Family.  Still thinking...

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #79 
It's interesting that the Smithsonian doesn't have a pictorial parts catalog for the New Family or Model 12.  Given it was one of Singer's most popular models, at least one copy should have made it to their collection!

I did find an 1893 parts catalog for the VS2.  The equivalent screw for that hand crank is S.39 on this page, so I suspect (and as Skipper has sketched) the one for the Model 12 would be similar.

http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Sewing-Machines/NMAHTEX/1772/imagepages/image7.htm

paul

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David

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Reply with quote  #80 
I've found every one I needed through my local True Value.  I've never needed a bolt or screw on any of mine that was all that non-standard, granted I've only done five or six.  Most recently - clamp stop motion (1/2" 20tpi) to make a bushing extractor for a 221.   A cone bearing (3/8" 28tpi) and linkage screws (1/4" 28tpi) that I have sitting here for the 103 project that I double checked just now.  I found it harder to turn the correct angle on the bearings/linkage screws since I don't have a lathe. 

They just aren't NPT so you can't use pipe fitting tap and dies with them.
 

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David
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #81 
Interesting.  It may be that the large screws tend to be easier, since we (still) use simple fractions for those sizes.  But for instance, the mounting hole for W&G machines (the large threaded hole in the base) is 19/64-18.  It's close enough that  a 5/32-18 bolt can be modified to fit, which is lucky.

Another example:  the needle retention screw on my Raymond is 9/16"-34.  And I think the screw that holds the drip pan to the bottom of  a Featherweight is oddball too, though I can't remember the size.  I had to buy one online.

paul

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #82 
Well, I've decided I won't be bidding on this -- too many complications, and I'm getting low on display space (not to mention spousal tolerance!), so I need to start being choosy about what I collect.

The bidding is up to a whopping $10.50, but the top bidder has been automatically bumped up several times, so they clearly have more to give.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153363383787

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OhioHills

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Reply with quote  #83 
I have stayed in the background since my computer and connection problems started....
No one has thrown up these resource's so....

https://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/screw_threads/

not many match NS standard threads....

Singer Price List of Parts, Accessories, and Attachments 10-1775-03a..jpg 
Singer Price List of Parts, Accessories, and Attachments 10-1775-11a..jpg 

Singer Price List of Parts, Accessories, and Attachments 10-1775-24a..jpg 

Singer Price List of Parts, Accessories, and Attachments 10-1775-25a..jpg 

also a pdf is attached for singerscrews , specs


lou

 
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pdf _singerscrews.pdf (3.60 MB, 16 views)

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #84 
Good stuff, lou -- thanks!   Do you know the source for those parts/price pages?  The whole book looks like it would be handy.

paul

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #85 
I recognize the numbers of the jpg's Lou posted as coming from the Smithsonian. It is 93 pages. The index is located at http://www.sil.si.edu/DigitalCollections/Trade-Literature/Sewing-Machines/NMAHTEX/1775/index.htm

Janey

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #86 
Oh -- thanks, of course.

I've converted it to a pdf, for convenience.  Interestingly, the conversion exposed that the Smithsonian is missing a scan of page 47 of the booklet (page 50 of the collection).  Perhaps it was censored.  ;-)

The pdf is here:  http://www.foxharp.boston.ma.us/tmp/z/singer-parts-prices-list-1884.pdf

It'll be there for about two months before it's automatically removed.   Steve -- I have a list of manuals (some from the Smithsonian, some not) that I have that either don't exist in the Manuals section, or which are improvements or significant variations on the ones there.  Should I send you a list to take a look at?

paul

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Farmhousesewer

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Reply with quote  #87 
I created a PDF and then compressed it. Not sure if it is too big or where you would want it. What size is OK? this is cut in half to 85M. I also moved a couple of pages around. I have done this to a number of docs that are in this format on SIL. 

Suggestions... 

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Maria
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #88 
email it to me at sgheeter@gmail.com, I will massage it and post it in the manuals section
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #89 

Mine's only 17M, I think.


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Peter

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Reply with quote  #90 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David


Buy it!  You can get a tap and die set with just about any thread per inch count you could possibly need to make a new bolt for it.


Where from please David?  I collect Singer and Jones machines, and they both use odd-ball threads in many places.

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David

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Reply with quote  #91 
Peter, I get any I've needed from my local True Value hardware.  I've only had to have them order one, that was for a drill press.  It was a 15/32 -23tpi, everything else they had on the wall.  I think they ordered it from Irwin.

If your local hardware store isn't well stocked you can go to tapco - http://www.tapcotaps.com/index.html  They make taps and dies to order.

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #92 
This thread seems as good a place as any for this question:

Most sources say the New Family was introduced in 1865, though sewmuse says 1863 -- not sure why.

Yesterday I was looking for information about my New Home Midget, which was designed (and made?) by the Knickerbocker Hand Sewing Machine Co., and Google helpfully took me to a periodical called "The Knickerbocker, or New York Monthly Magazine" (which of course had nothing to do with my search).  But inside the January, 1860 issue, I found this advertisement.

Now, that sure looks like an ad for a New Family, to me.  But I'm sure it's not.  So, what is it that they're calling the "Singer New Family Sewing-Machine"?

The Knickerbocker issue is here:  https://books.google.com/books?id=XBoAAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA128-IA6&dq=Knickerbocker%20Hand%20Sewing%20Machine&pg=PA128-IA6#v=onepage&q&f=false





new_family_1860.png 


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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #93 
The machine depicted in the ad is the Letter A machine. The wide band wheel is the give away. The Letter A machine is from 1859-1865. The Improved Letter A machine is from 1863-1865, then the New Family from 1865-1877, then the Singer 12(North America only).
 Singer had the Family machine prior to 1859 in the form of the "Turtle back" and referred to all after that as the new family in brochures. The IF from 1879 was referred to as the Singer Improved New Family High Arm at first, then changed to the Improved Family by 1883ish.

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Madmurdock75

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Reply with quote  #94 
Does anyone know if the 13 takes the same shuttle and bobbin as the 12? Does it by chance use the same needle clamp?
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Reply with quote  #95 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH-VSS
email it to me at sgheeter@gmail.com, I will massage it and post it in the manuals section


Steve, could you please point me to where this PDF is?  I looked through the Manuals section and didn't see it. 

Thanks,
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #96 
Just did it tonight.


https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/singer-price-list-of-parts-accessories-attachments-for-sewing-machines-manufactured-sold-by-singer-july281884-10636709?pid=1312516304#post1312516304

I made a copy that is 30mb and looks the same to my old eyes.  but I left instructions to PM me for the full 179mb file if a person feels the need,

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Ericka

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Reply with quote  #97 
Thanks, Steve.  I thought I had checked everyplace twice, just to be sure I hadn't missed it - has been known to happen [frown]  That whole Smithsonian manual is great, BTW.  I've got an 1882 Retail Family Price List that is MUCH smaller and at least has one page that shows a picture of some of the attachments.  I really wish that they would have plates that show every attachment like later parts charts, though, and it looks like they didn't have any attachment pics in the Smithsonian one except for a few feet, if I recall right.  I'll send you the scan that I made if you'd like it.  I should actually go in and do some straightening, etc, first, though.

Thanks for posting it.
Ericka

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #98 
I have the full version of Adobe so I can deskew, and clean up PDF's like the one we just posted.  So sure, send it on and I will have a go at it!
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Ericka

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Reply with quote  #99 
Okay, so do you prefer the original JPEGs that I scanned or do you want them combined into a PDF?  I've got both.
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #100 
either is fine
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