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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #1 
A very good friend of mine's mother passed away unexpectedly last week.  For several months my friend (Janine) has been telling me about her mother's Singer treadle cabinet that she wants to get.  It was her mother, maybe grandmother's machine.  Unfortunately, many years ago her mother discarded the machine and some treadle parts and just used it for a table.  This week Janine asked if I could find a machine and the missing parts, and restore it to working order for her.  I said that I'd be glad to.

So now the detective part comes in.  She does not know what machine it had, but she sent these photos of the cabinet.  The opening looks full size, so I assume it would a 27, 66 or 15 or variant.  Is there anyway to narrow down the machine from these photos?  What model cabinet is this and when might it have been made? Once I determine what machine to look for, I'd probably just look for a complete treadle and machine, then transfer the head and parts over to her mom's base.  I appreciate your thoughts.

  jan3.jpg  jan6.jpg  jan8.jpg


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Steve in Virginia
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Miriam

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Reply with quote  #2 
It isn't all that old IMHO so more likely a round bobbin. - vs might be more ornate. Put something in there she would be familiar with enough to actually use. Does she use a class 15 bobbin or a class 66 bobbin on a regular basis? If so get something that matches. Bobbin case vs drop in type. Either one would be appropriate in that table. Too bad you don't live near here. I have tons of beheaded machines. Some in remarkable condition.
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Farmer John

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Reply with quote  #3 
While I can't tell you what head came in that cabinet, there are significant differences in treadle cabinets. 
1.  There is about an inch difference in the spacing of the cast iron treadle legs among models, therefore cabinets and center drawers are different, and will not interchange.

2.  There are both tilt and pull out center drawers, with differing widths.

3.  The "lift assist" spring of the cabinet will either be about one foot long or of three or four coils.  If your cabinet has the long coil spring, a #15 head will not fold down into the cabinet, due to a rear leg of the #15 head interfering with the long coil spring.  However, my Singer 115 came to me in its original cabinet, which has a long coil spring assist, but obviously the bed casting of the head is different. being mechanically a Wheeler & Wilson action in a Singer body..
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #4 
I know Janine sews on a modern machine, but she is a very old school person.  Her and her husband are Civil War reenactors like me, so she embraces old technology.  I think she would be ok with either round or VS bobbins.

I didn't know there was a difference in treadle leg spacing between models.  I'm anxious to get the cabinet and examine it closely. I'll check the spring on the assist lever. I have some 27 and 66 heads I can use to trial fit.  It is missing the pedal, pitman arm, flywheel and associated hardware.  Hoping to find a similar one on craigslist that I can scavenge parts from.

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Steve in Virginia
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Reply with quote  #5 
I have the same cabinet. Mine came with a very nice Redhead 66-1. Was my grandmothers. Made in 1916
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Farmer John

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Reply with quote  #6 
Steve, the older Singer treadles used a wooden pitman, the peddle being 13 1/2 inches long.  Other Singer treadles used a round steel pitman, with the 13 1/4"  peddle having an adjustable ball and socket arrangement for the pitman, which has an adjustable ball bearing at the flywheel end.  Your cabinet, with the tilting center drawer, probably uses the steel and ball bearing pitman arrangement.  A 27 or 66 fill fit into about any cabinet, regardless of assist spring length.  Looking at your photos, it appears that the lower parts of the castings that support the treadle peddle have been cut away.  This would require replacement of the entire "H" casting that has the word SINGER cast into it.  I just measured the width of the treadle leg spacing at the lower end of the legs where the "H" casting bolts to the legs, as follows,
cabinet #1, steel pitman, tilt drawer,   19 1/2 inches, inside to inside
Cabinet #2, steel pitman, tilt drawer,   21 1/2 inches, inside to inside
Cabinet #3, wooden pitman, sliding drawer, 20 3/8 inches, inside to inside

You will have to be careful with parts selection and/or the width of the entire cast iron treadle, if it is to be replaced upon the existing wooden cabinet.
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LindaL

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Reply with quote  #7 
I have two treadles that look like that. Both had a 66-1 in it.
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #8 
Thanks John - those dimensions will be very helpful when I get Janine's machine. If the castings have been sawed off, then it looks like replacing the entire assembly may be in order.

The consensus seems to be a 66-1 was the likely original inhabitant. Making great progress on the detective work - thanks everyone!

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Steve in Virginia
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davevv

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Reply with quote  #9 
I have that cabinet.  Mine came with a 127 in it.  I still need to freshen up the finish on the wood and get the machine in working order.  Just been too busy with quilting customers and other machines to get to it yet.
[DSCN0162-XL] 

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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #10 
Dave - can look at the dimensions Farmer John posted, then measure yours and tell me what it is? This may help nail down what machine originally came in her cabinet. Thanks!
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Steve in Virginia
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davevv

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Reply with quote  #11 
Mine is 21.5" between the legs on the inside.  Looking at the pictures, I just realized there is a slight difference between the two cabinets.  The hinged piece at the front extends farther back on the right side of my cabinet than it does on yours.  Mine goes back to halfway between the two belt holes, where yours ends at the front belt hole.  I have no idea if that matters to anything though.
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thanks Dave. That's another nugget of information. So maybe the 27/127 use the 21.5" wide legs and 66s use one of the other dimensions. Not sure about the different length of folding pieces either....
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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #13 
Maybe you can show her your machines and let her decide what she wants to go in the cabinet.

Cari

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Margaret

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Reply with quote  #14 
Cari, you're a genius!

I personally would vote for a 15 because I'm more familiar with the bobbin style. Also they're great machines! Haven't actually sewn on a 66 yet - I have one in pieces and one hiding away somewhere (probably so I don't pull it to pieces!).

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penny

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Reply with quote  #15 
Looks like my 66-1's treadle. Here's what ismacs has listed for 5 drawer treadles.

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/cabinet_table_no_2-3.html
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for the link Penny.  It mentions the model 127, not the 27. So that would put it in the 1910 - 1940 period I think.

Our first priority is to return it to how her mother had it.  When she brings me the cabinet I'll look closer at the details and see if she remembers any distinguishing details of the machine.  If not, then we'll look at what heads will work and go from there.

Thanks everyone!

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Steve in Virginia
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Reply with quote  #17 
Steve, I did a very similar project - well, sort of.  I inherited my great-grandmother's cabinet similar to yours pictured.  The machine was long gone but I remember clearly an 'electrified' machine in it (in fact used it as a child).  I measured the einter point of the hinge pins and determined a 66 belonged in that base.  I've since picked up an electrified 66 Redhead that I've yet to finish cleaning up/installing.  Have only tested the fit so far and it's perfect.  FWIW.  Good luck with your project.  I know your friend will be thrilled with the results.
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #18 
Here are a couple more photos she sent. It looks like the front folding piece has been carved on.  Maybe a newer machine was in it at some point.

jan2.jpg  jan4.jpg  jan5.jpg  jan7.jpg


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Steve in Virginia
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Farmer John

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Reply with quote  #19 
NJ Quilter, all of the Singer full size  heads have the same center to center hinge spacing, ie, 27, 127, 15,115, 66, 201 etc, so I don't think that that dimension can be used to determine what head will fit in a particular cabinet.  Even the Necchi sm have the same spacing as Singer, though the pin size is slightly smaller
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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer John
NJ Quilter, all of the Singer full size  heads have the same center to center hinge spacing, ie, 27, 127, 15,115, 66, 201 etc, so I don't think that that dimension can be used to determine what head will fit in a particular cabinet.  Even the Necchi sm have the same spacing as Singer, though the pin size is slightly smaller
John
Most Japanese machines have the same hinge spacing too.

Cari

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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #21 
I finally got a look at Janine's treadle cabinet last night. It is a Model #2 cabinet.  The width between the H-frame is 19.5".  It takes a full size machine.  She will probably go with a 27/127 or 66 red eye (or both).  We found a pretty nice complete 66 redeye in the same cabinet on CL. We'll try to take a look at it this week.  If it is the same width and if she can get it at a good price, she'll buy it.  I'll then transfer the needed treadle parts to hers.  She is also going to come over to my house and test drive a 27 and 66 treadle and look at the finer points.  She sews on a modern machine, but has never treadled.  She is very excited about this project and I'm really looking forward to pulling this project together for her. 

More to follow.

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Steve in Virginia
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davevv

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Reply with quote  #22 
Cool.  You'll get her hooked, and before you know it she'll have half a dozen antique machines.  
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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #23 
It might be easier to just transfer her cabinet to the new irons.

Cari

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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cari-in-Oly
It might be easier to just transfer her cabinet to the new irons.

Cari


You are probably right.  But I think she wants to keep as much of the original parts as possible.  I understand that.  We'll see.  So the adventure begins!

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Steve in Virginia
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #25 
Janine came over last weekend and test drove a couple of my treadles. She really liked the red eye 66. Wouldn't you know it, a few days ago I found a pretty nice red eye head in an antique mall for $25, so I grabbed it.

The 19.5" wide irons seem to be rather scarce in these parts. I've been scouring CL, Ebay, flea markets and antique malls. Found a lot of Singer treadles, but all are either 20+ or 21.5" wide. I told her it may take a while to find a donor treadle, so the search continues.

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Steve in Virginia
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Margaret

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Reply with quote  #26 
You could always shim one of the larger ones...
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Margaret 
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #27 
What I need is the narrow 19.5" center "H" frame section, pedal, pitman arm, flywheel and associated hardware.  This is the narrowest version. If it was a wider one, then a narrow "H" frame could possibly be shimmed.  But not the other way around. 
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Steve in Virginia
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Margaret

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Reply with quote  #28 
Ok. Not all my ideas work! Hope you find the right treadle soon.
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Margaret 
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ndnchf

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Reply with quote  #29 
I MAY have located a treadle on CL that matches Janine's. In the mean time I'm working on a very dirty model 66 redeye to go into it. Here is a before and after view of one area.

Attached Images
jpeg J2.jpg (43.47 KB, 8 views)
jpeg J1.jpg (44.44 KB, 7 views)


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Steve in Virginia

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davevv

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Reply with quote  #30 
Wow, I've never seen one with enough dirt on it to completely hide the decals like that.
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