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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #1 
There has been some discussion (elsewhere on VSS http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/for-giggles-i-saw-it-on-7894761?trail=1650 ) about when motor bosses started being used on all machines. I've been curious about that myself.

 I found a thread on the other board that CD, Thayerrags, had found a 1901 27k2 that was a convertible machine and  (ETA -I thought) had a motor boss for a hand crank or be used in a treadle base.  (ETA- It does not have a motor boss.)

My sister's 66-1 with Lotus decals was allocated December 1906 and did NOT have a motor boss.

I have a 66-1 with Scroll decals, aka Red Head, serial number allocated October 1912 that has a motor boss. It also was converted and has a motor with the solid hand wheel. I was just thinking that it might have been converted from a hand crank?? as it did come in a wood base, but no top. How wide would a hand crank base be?

MJ, MJTX, has a 1910 Singer 66 (serial # G766048). No motor boss. "(No decals, I think it was repainted solid black during conversion.)"

Cheryl's, twentypoundtabby, has 66 lotuses one is F1548837 (1911) and the other C351260 (which according to http://naehmaschinenwerk.de/singer_serialnumber/seite03_singer_1letter.htm it would be 1908). Both have motor bosses.

I have a few 27's 1905 and earlier, none have a motor boss.
I have a 128 from 1921 and it does have a motor boss.

I'm guessing that by 1920s all machines had a motor boss?

Anyone else?

Janey




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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #2 
Janey,

Thanks for getting this going. I am also interested in when Singer changed the casting to include a motor bass.  I didn't think I'd be able to find a model 66 Lotus Flower with a motor boss, but they did make them. So I think it would be really interesting to find out when the casting was changed in relationship to the decals and the model.
IMG_4017.jpg 
To that end, here's my December 1919 model 66 with Red Eye decals - and motor boss. (G7584211)
It might not be the beginning of the boss - but this it may near the end of that decal set on a 66 (1923?) with a motor boss.

00H0H_1lc7G6l9ZoF_1200x900.jpg 
And here's a May 1920 Model 15 w/motor boss in Gingerbread (1900-1930) which I may have to go get...lol.


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Reply with quote  #3 
My 1916 Redeye Singer treadle, back clamp feet, has a motor boss. Serial G4514463
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Reply with quote  #4 
The 1916 model 66 I used to have had a motor boss. I think I remember it being a red eye under the ugly refurb it received in Chicago at some point.

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johnstuart

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Reply with quote  #5 
The Canadian patent for the machine with the motor boss is Dec.1 , 1911. That is on a singer 127 and i recently found an electric with the motor mounted on the hand wheel in 1901, again Canadian. I think the factories changed at different times over a period of 2-3 years, Canada being the last. In  the States, we know using the Smithsonian archives that Deihl was still using the old electrical system from 1886 up to 1906. Deihl did have a different motor, but was mounted under the table top. This is nicknamed the singer "egg" and is rare. There is a labeled Simanco of the "egg" type. Deihl became Simanco when they merged two companies into Singer/Simanco. I can't say for sure, but this narrows it down from 1906-1911 world wide as an opinion only so far.

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Reply with quote  #6 
There is also the possibility it was also first for the hand crank and then became a way to mount a new style motor to the machine. I recall someone telling me this before, might have been CD, not positive though.

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ThayerRags

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurWorkbench
There has been some discussion....about when motor bosses started being used on all machines. I've been curious about that myself.

I found a thread on the other board that CD, Thayerrags, had found a 1901 27k2 that was a convertible machine and had a motor boss for a hand crank or be used in a treadle base.

Janey



OH NO! WHOA, WHOA, DOUBLE WHOA!!!!

Either my entry got edited, or it was mis-read.  That is NOT correct!  My 1901 Singer 27K2 DOES NOT have a motor boss.  It’s got the wrap-around hand attachment #81712 and the accompanying special bobbin winder #81717 and supposedly came out of the factory mounted in a non-folding treadle cabinet with hood for both handcrank and treadle operation.

As far as the Singer 66 motor boss is concerned, I’ve kept a list of the model 66 machines that I’ve owned (30), and it appears that the model was changed from having a 6-spoke balance wheel and no boss, to having a 9-spoke balance wheel and a boss sometime between the batch issued Oct 3, 1912 (G2359862) and the batch issued Mar 19, 1913 (G2776188) at the Elizabethport Factory in NJ.  Both of these had Red Eye decals. I haven’t ever had any model 66 machines from other factories that were in that time period (1912-1913).

CD in Oklahoma

ETA: Added the word "supposedly" to avoid any bad information on my part.


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Reply with quote  #8 
I'm going to double check the serial number on my Prussian Lotus with the motor boss in case that 3 is really an 8. That would put it at 1912 which would make more sense to me. BTW Janey, that's the one headed your way.
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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThayerRags


OH NO! WHOA, WHOA, DOUBLE WHOA!!!!

Either my entry got edited, or it was mis-read.  That is NOT correct!  My 1901 Singer 27K2 DOES NOT have a motor boss.  It’s got the wrap-around hand attachment #81712 and the accompanying special bobbin winder #81717 and supposedly came out of the factory mounted in a non-folding treadle cabinet with hood for both handcrank and treadle operation.

As far as the Singer 66 motor boss is concerned, I’ve kept a list of the model 66 machines that I’ve owned (30), and it appears that the model was changed from having a 6-spoke balance wheel and no boss, to having a 9-spoke balance wheel and a boss sometime between the batch issued Oct 3, 1912 (G2359862) and the batch issued Mar 19, 1913 (G2776188) at the Elizabethport Factory in NJ.  Both of these had Red Eye decals. I haven’t ever had any model 66 machines from other factories that were in that time period (1912-1913).

CD in Oklahoma

ETA: Added the word "supposedly" to avoid any bad information on my part.



My apologies and I have edited my initial post to indicate that it does not have a motor boss .  I should have double checked or triple checked.  I just skimmed through the thread. 

I know you have talked about motor bosses over there.  I had a few threads opened and evidently closed the one with the pre-1900 machine with a motor boss and evidently closed the "correct" thread (or part of that really big one).  Which would be  this thread though. 

Janey





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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OurWorkbench


My apologies and I have edited my initial post to indicate that it does not have a motor boss .
Janey



Janey, no apology needed since there wasn’t any harm done. I just wanted to get the “fake news” stopped as soon as possible (since it had my name attached to it).  I’m hoping that Steve’s VSS site can help put myths to rest, and certainly not start any new ones.

There’s getting to be so much incorrect information on the web these days that it’s getting ridiculous. Incorrect information seems to spread faster than the correct information.  I’ve probably added to the incorrect information more than once, since I’m like nearly everyone else in the vintage sewing machine world, just a “self-appointed authority”.  At times, I really get to thinking that I know my $hit, only to later find out that that’s all it is.  

I don’t like to use the term “expert”, because I was told at an early age that an “ex” is a “has-been”, and a “spurt” is a “little drip of liquid under pressure”.  That has stuck with me, so I certainly don’t want to be thought of as an expert, and I try not to refer to anyone else with that term.

I know that I had “fake news” about one of my sewing machines on my website at one time.  Macy Baby pointed it out to me a few years ago.  I couldn’t remember which machine that I had identified incorrectly, so I took all of the sewing machine pages that possibly could have contained the incorrect information off of my site to make sure that I got it, and I haven’t put them back.  I had spent years researching and identifying my sewing machine listings, and I didn’t care to do that over again.  If I made a mistake on one, there could have been other mistakes, so I did away with all of it.

Please continue with your dating of motor boss introduction (but you may want to make sure the model number is included, because they didn’t all get them at the same time).  An example is the 3/4-size Singer machines that were designed to be portable hand-operated machines.  My early 1890 Singer 28-1 has a boss.  I don’t know if all 28s had a boss, but I suspect that they did.  I’ve only researched the model 66 since there are model 66 units with and units without a boss.

CD in Oklahoma

Here's another photo of my 1901 Singer 27K2 for reference:
Machine552T_18.jpg   
ETA: Closer shot of the wrap-around hand attachment:
Machine552_24.jpg 


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Reply with quote  #11 
The early style painted faceplate VS3 that Paul (PGF) is looking at to buy, has the example of the motor boss in it's first use for the handcrank. That is in the "hey check this out" section post # 4656

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #12 
Thank you, CD.

I agree about misinformation spreading faster. That is why I have tried to put sources in so many of my posts, so that others could weigh if credible or not. I know that when I've researched machines, I have sometimes put your name in my search terms as I remember something you wrote that would apply.

The machine John Stuart referred to is located on is http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/hey-check-this-out-7894772?trail=4700 which is page 94 of that thread. WOW, that is a lot of posts, if someone wants to see which machine you were referring to when there are even more pages.

Janey



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Reply with quote  #13 
I just saw what i did there and thought there was a search that did that. I didn't put a page sorry Janey, thank you for listing that. I have been wondering why same and similar machines have one or two spools on the top. I think that will be my next "project" to look into after the earliest electrics.

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #14 
It looks like Paul got the VS3 as seen at post #4011 on http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/todays-sewing-machine-adventure-7896128?trail=4050 page. From what I can see it looks more like an extruded tube that the hand crank goes into and possibly with a set screw? It does not look like the motor bosses on the later machines that have a raised area and ridge that the hand crank fits over and screws through the crank and then the threads in the "boss" area.

Janey

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Reply with quote  #15 
That's right -- my 1888 VS3 doesn't have a motor boss.  It's definitely a hand crank boss.  Direct link to pictures:
  http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1308180114&postcount=4015&forum=501752

paul

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Reply with quote  #16 
The part where you attach an apature motor is the hand crank "boss" . They also mounted that motor on the table top in line with the handwheel on a block. ISMACS has a write up sometime back on this. That motor was in very limited use from 1880-1886 and only good for very light goods. The Singer web site has some limited historical information on this first electric attempt and list the exposition it was sold at. The second electric motor used the same attachment method as the full size handcrank wrap around. The inner brass disk was mounted directly to the main cast body in the same location the belt guard is as well as the wrap around hand crank. This engine was mounted on the main shaft as well and was used from 1886-190(1 so far). This later got changed to an under table motor in 1905 mounted like modern industrial sewing machines. Handcrank mounts are motor mounts, just a way of attaching the drive mechanism. I will use mount instead of "boss" for describing these in the future i think.

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Reply with quote  #17 
John -- are you saying that the hand crank mounting post on my VS3 was also used to mount the early motor?

Also:  were there hand crank versions of the VS1 or VS2?



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Reply with quote  #18 
I have not heard of any VS1's found with a handcrank and i have never found any sales information on them at all. The VS2IF machines did have a handcrank. Yes Paul, those did get used to mount a motor. I do have to say that the motors used were not Singer's in any way until 1886. There is another name for those motors called a bipolar motor. Our view of standardization doesn't conform to 1880-1900 and they attached the motors in any solid method available. By no means is the mount a standard way of mounting the motor, just the most popular way, second being the table top method, the third being a detachable tray. Charlie26 you showed us a VS2 crank not long ago from ebay from the heart institute of ( some town) in Brittan? It is in the check this out section page 93 item 4617 and has the paper clip after market decals on the fiddlebase. That is an original type handcrank for the VS2 and the IF has a similar one with different winder.

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks John -- That VS2 in the ebay sale that charley26 pointed us to has the style of hand crank mount that attaches to the belt guard bolt holes -- at least, that's what I think I see in the ebay listing photos. I guess you're saying that that style of mount was used to mount the early motors you're talking about.

My VS3 doesn't have that style of hand crank mount -- it has a cylindrical hollow post cast onto the side of the pillar, and the hand crank assembly has a large pin which inserts into that post, and is held by (what is essentially) a large set screw.  It doesn't seem likely to me that that would have been used to mount a motor, but perhaps it was.

It's interesting that the VS3 apparently had two separate pillar castings:  one for the "V.S. No. 3 Machine" and the other for the "V.S. Hand Machine", which is what mine seems to be.  I guess mine isn't really a VS3!!

BTW, if you click on the #NNNN link in the upper right corner of any post, it will give you that post on a page by itself.  That makes it easy to copy/paste a link to that specific post.

Here's charley26's VS2 post: http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1308101376&postcount=4617&forum=501752

Here's the ebay listing he was referring to:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-SINGER-1873-Mechanical-Manual-Portable-Sewing-Machine-Carry-Case-A33-/372632404930?_trksid=p2047675.m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

Here's my post with pictures of my hand crank mount:  http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1308180114&postcount=4015&forum=501752

paul

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Reply with quote  #20 
The VS3 and VS2 had two different ways of attaching motors using what was on the machine. The bipolar motors mostly had a post to go into the hole like your's has. The pancake motor used the handwheel location and was stabalized to the machine using the screw hole the VS2 handcrank has. Even after motor "bosses" were around there were several after market electrifications that utilized these mounting points as well.

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Reply with quote  #21 
Interesting -- thanks!   Is the "post" style of mount unique to the VS3?

Also -- do you have links to pictures of those motors?  I guess one of those would be quite the find!

paul

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Reply with quote  #22 
I have not seen the post type mount on the VS2, only the wrap around one. I can't say they didn't use one ever, but they would be rare if they did, never saw one.

Here is an example of the Vs2 handwheel mounted motor listed as Singer's first electric. It has a mention of the early 1880's bi polar motors as well. http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/great-diehl-of-invention.html

ISMACS has a picture of the bi polar motor, but i can't find it right now, don't know why.

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Reply with quote  #23 
Wow -- I'd love to see that in person.  Thanks!
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Reply with quote  #24 
That example resides in the Dunbarton museum in Clydesbank. They have color jappaned Singer 12's as well.

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnstuart
That example resides in the Dunbarton museum in Clydesbank. They have color jappaned Singer 12's as well.

  John Stuart


If you were talking about the 1st electric, no, it is in Kentucky.
FB_IMG_1547353529889.jpg 


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Reply with quote  #26 
That one you are showing Steve is an Edison D engine i think based on the connections. The one i showed is from a year earlier and is held on permanent display in glass case in the Dunbarton museum and has an earlier engine. I have not identified the engine in the museum, but i am close i think. I think it is the Hudson drum motor and has the possible maker mark of Thomas Turner, an apprentice at the time under Hudson very close to the Singer Clydesbank factory towards the mouth of the Clyde river. The Scottish engine has the patent information tag as required under act of parliament and the maker mark of the guild( indentured apprentice 2 yr.) The Edison D is 1889/90 and up, the one in Scotland is 1887 and up. WDBCS.2004.1694 Patent Plate.jpg  Note the size difference in the bolted back plate and how it doesn't tuck under the brass handwheel.

In Steve's picture of the electric in Kentucky, we can see how the engine is mounted to the main body using the screw hole for the handcrank/belt cover. It is connected internally and the black area doesn't move, holding the internal wire and contacts for the motor. The black engine plate covers the crank/belt guard area after installation as seen in the picture.

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Reply with quote  #27 
But on both, the big wide outer rim does turn?  And doubles as the hand wheel, I guess?  Nice.  I'm sure that as engineers with any aesthetic sense they were dismayed when belts and pulleys and bolted on motors became the norm.  But cost always wins, and I'll bet the traditional bolt-on motor was a lot cheaper.

paul

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Reply with quote  #28 
Yes Paul, on both the brass outer rim spins. If you notice, one step in the installation of all of these types in that casement is the braising of the brass ring that holds the hand wheel on. That is the inner lip towards the faceplate and the outside facing right (as if you were seated ready to sew) has no seam and then goes into the decorative outer cover towards the brass engage/disengage that looks the same as the regular one on all IF/VS2 machines. They all seem to have the same engine cover decoration.

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Reply with quote  #29 
The Kentucky machine is in the collection of Gary Wacks and according to him, it was the first electrified Singer.
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Reply with quote  #30 
The first electric is only the platform and not the motor. The first platform was short lived only part of 1886 (held by square peg under back side of table) then followed by the more common long black box as still can be seen in use in the Diehl brochure. I think i did get a look at his machine and can conclude definitively it is the second type of Singer electric platform using an Edison D motor.

The patent info on the First Singer platform is published with ISMACS listing the patents for the "controller" that was first used, and the Diehl motor patent was included for the same year. The motor patent also states it may possibly be the first patented idea/process, rather than article/item, another first.

I think Mr. Wacks has an ISMACS subscription and my data was published after his statement. At the time that was the earliest identified machine prior to my information.

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Reply with quote  #31 
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Reply with quote  #32 
OK, I got Cheryl's Lotus 66 today. I thought I saw a cross on the bottom of the C thinking it might be an Elizabethport "G" allocated March 16, 1910. But after taking numerous pictures, sideways, upside down and it sure looks like a "C" and if the link http://naehmaschinenwerk.de/singer_serialnumber/seite03_singer_1letter.htm is accurate it would be 1908. It has an "American" badge, not what I would think would be on a machine made in Wittenberge, Prussia, Germany another thing I found was picture of the badge for Wittenberge at
https://www.singersewinginfo.co.uk/wittenberge/ It also states "That source made them up as their estimate of what they could have been, not what they actually were." Which would make sense since there are no actual records. However, It goes on to state "many machines to be about 10 years older than they really are according to dated receipts." But does not give actual examples or where that info came from.

I also saw http://needlebar.org/cm/displayimage.php?album=501&pid=8342#top_display_media but there are no six digit numbers in that image.

Guess we will never really know.

Also. http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/decals/domestic-decals.html says that the Egyptian (Green) Lotus decals were used from 1907 to c.1920. I thought that I read somewhere that there were two versions of this decal, but I don't remember where. Maybe http://needlebar.org/nbwiki/index.php/Singer_Machine_Decoration I just looked, again, and it says NB #26a Brown Lotus was "Used on: Model 66-1, Model 66-4, Model 66K, Model 66 Wittenberge" from 1902 to 1925.

My, my, my head is spinning. I will post a picture of the serial number on Monday when I post to the Colorado Get-together thread http://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/colorado-gettogether-9499001?trail=100

Janey



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