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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #1 
If anyone would care to chime in with identifying the drawer contents of the recently acquired W&G...

IMG_4196.jpg 

I wouldn't know if they're for this machine or not. Although as bizarre as they appear,
I think there's three sizes of hemmer? (six new needles - that's a plus!)


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Reply with quote  #2 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/Steelsewing
If anyone would care to chime in with identifying the drawer contents of the recently acquired W&G...

IMG_4196.jpg 

I wouldn't know if they're for this machine or not. Although as bizarre as they appear,
I think there's three sizes of hemmer? (six new needles - that's a plus!)


Picture on my phone is fuzzy, but I think they're all for you w&g. Maybe not the little screw-eye shaped to Hing in the second row. Nice find! The needlebars are always stuck, btw.

Paul (at a campground somewhere in Utah)

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #3 
WOW, very nice.

https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/wilcox-gibbs-automatic-w-treadle-8047720?pid=1291692141
https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/wilcox-gibbs-electric-automatic-8046041?pid=1291677104

Might help identify your "bits"

Janey

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #4 
Oh yeah. That pretty much did it.

(and no, I won't ask about dating the machine - seems more like a magic trick than fact)

Thank you Janey.

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim/Steelsewing
Oh yeah. That pretty much did it.

(and no, I won't ask about dating the machine - seems more like a magic trick than fact)

Thank you Janey.


What's the s/n? Graham Forsdyke gives out dates based on the factory records (which ISMACS keep private), and I've been taking notes for some time. I can probably date it within a year or two.

paul

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #6 
A 581319 - according to my incantations (and some rubber chicken waving) either the machine was made around 1901 -or- that's tomorrow's pick-four number. Not sure which. =)
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #7 
That puts it between machines that Graham dated as 1911 and 1912. (Edit:. He answers requests on the ISMACS mailing list, and the Yahoo W&G group list.)
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #8 
You know, honest, the date wasn't terribly important to me. It was a W&G, treadle, not working, with table & irons at a super crazy low price. Before I drove that far I asked the seller about the condition and he said "It's pretty to look at, but it don't work." So I've tentatively named it after an ex-girlfriend who shared very similar characteristics. The coffin box is missing, but again, no big. I am, however, seriously pondering a way to hand crank it without any alterations.  It's on the bench soaking. I will consider those references as well.  Thanks again.
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #9 
Yeah, the date isn't that important when they're all identical. :-)
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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #10 
Oh, Courtney had a problem with a stuck needle bar and had been trying to free up for a couple of months of soaking. See solution at #71 of https://www.victoriansweatshop.com/post/colorado-gettogether-9499001?trail=100

Janey


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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #11 
Well now... looks like I may have found a way to hand crank it...

Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 12.05.23 PM.png 

I just need an account on 'that auction site' and 40 bucks to ship from Germany, LOL.


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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #12 
That looks like the exact same (including tile) that I've been seeing pop up on eBay in the U.K.  Maybe the auction site in Germany is showing what is available in U.K. or maybe seller in U.K. is now listing in other places.  ?  I found it before by going to ebay.uk and looking for hand crank sewing machine.  Best regards, Mike  here it is on ebay.uk currently being bid at 1.2 british pounds! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Old-Vintage-Antique-Sewing-Machine-Wilcox-Willcox-Gibbs-Hand-Crank-Only/392315085517?hash=item5b57cd22cd:g:4A4AAOSwxGBdBqDW

Best regards, Mike
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #13 
Yep, that's it. Chances of stumbling upon one of those is probably pretty slim... which is partly why I didn't post the link, heh...
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #14 
Hi,  I remember you first looking for it and trying to find it after the auction had ended.  I think it has re listed many times.  Everyone here are decent folks.  I don't think anyone is going to out bid you on it.  I believe you are the upcoming rightful owner on it.  I've seen it come and go for several months but it left my RADAR display when I could no longer find it after you were first looking (if I remember for re enactment equipment).   Also, I think this is the same seller that sold me my hand crank W&W (same tile in pictures).  Best regards, Mike
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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #15 
Mike is right - that hand crank for the Willcox & Gibbs on the stone tiles has been posted numerous times on eBay. One has to assume some kind of scam is being worked here or someone is using the same photo over and over again, which is a violation of their polices I believe. Maybe someone should mention....! 

Caveat emptor - Let the buyer beware. 

Maybe a detailed search of closed auctions should be done and a file created on this item. Always beware when buying from overseas sellers. As for any overseas sellers I may be offending, perhaps policing the home market is in order. In the US there are agencies we can contact, and probably should. 

-Bruce
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks for the heads up on that.

Spent a part of my morning sending pics off to a few other collectors I know on the off chance they've seen one lying about.

*crosses fingers*

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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #17 
A cursory search of past listings shows this is either the same one varied or the seller keeps finding them and using the same tiles as props. It's hard to believe this many would be up from one seller.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=Willcox+%26+Gibbs+hand+crank+&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Complete=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&LH_Auction=1&LH_ItemCondition=4&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=98312-4122&_sargn=-1%26saslc%3D1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_fosrp=1

- Bruce
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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #18 
I should mention that these listings for the W&G hand crank may indeed be legitimate. It's difficult to be totally confident without serious checking, though. 

In the last couple of months I have listed machines on Craigslist in my area, and at least half of them have been met with the cashier's check and pick up by moving company scam. It's a well known Craigslist scam, but easy prey for unsuspecting, naive sellers. One would hope these eBay listings are legitimate, as some of us would like one but are "gun shy" when it comes to some listings. Experiences are not always happy ones. 

-Bruce
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #19 
There's a lot of things out there that are hard to believe. I've picked up two inexpensive featherweights in the last week or so and when I check my local ads... there's no less than six currently for sale. That never happens. You're 'lucky' to see one a month - more like one every two months. I can't account for it, except that perhaps... it's because Nova Montgomery is giving her Pittsburgh Featherweight class next weekend and all the quilters are suddenly parting with spare machines. So, who knows, maybe the seller with the hand cranks inherited an old sewing machine shop where once upon a time machines were converted to electric?
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #20 
The seller is in England where the majority of the W&G handcranks were sold.  I have been able to purchase a complete W&G handcrank with the case for $150 + Shipping from that seller.

I am also looking for that set up and have that one already bookmarked...muhaha  Probably not bidding on that one as it looks to be going for more than I want to pay

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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #21 
It's good to know that is a legitimate seller with a good inventory. It makes sense that most hand crank W&Gs are coming from the UK since they were more prevalent there than in the US. 

I have two hand crank Willcox & Gibbs machines, one UK type and one geared American type. I have several heads needing some kind of power but am working on what I call a "tub" or "pot" drive hand crank. Basically, it's a friction clockwise drive using an aluminum sauce pan type pot body that will be mounted to a hand crank drive with a rubber pad or tire glued into the inner side of the pot that will contact the hand wheel directly, sort of like the friction wheels act on machines like White and Domestic electrics, but since it is in direct contact and going clockwise, it will drive the hand wheel clockwise as well. Simple and should work OK, I just need to get it built and try it out. It can be made attractive with some work as well. 

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #22 
Oh, don't you know I've been McGuivering alternatives.  I have an extra Singer 9 spoke hand wheel and a friend that can get the imported hand cranks at cost.  It wouldn't take much to fab a little 3-leg stand. I mean sure, a bracket, wooden handle, and an old lawn mower wheel and I could have it going in an afternoon. It's the 'look nice' part that's always the trouble. Although... I do have to say that if I could build the right hand crank stand, why stop at sewing machines? I could grind coffee, run a grinder wheel, small lathe, food processor... the list goes on and on. [smile]
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Jpwest

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Reply with quote  #23 
Before you get too excited about making it a handcrank...I have both electric and treadle plus a Singer and a Wheeler & Wilson handcrank. I love the treadle Wilcox. It is, maybe the only, treadle that won’t let you run it backwards. It’s a beautiful machine to use.
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #24 
I don't really have a choice in the matter. My sister, who makes costumes, wants a hand crank to take with her to the 'encampments' where her customers are to make costume repairs onsite (Renaissance & Civil War). She doesn't want a Wheeler & Wilson, or a Singer or etc. She wants the W&G. Don't ask me why, but that's what she wants. I'd rather figure out a way to do that with a 'rescue' than have some beautifully restored machine sitting out in the woods for two weeks with my Sister... see, the whole thing is a bit of a balancing act where I must tread lightly on several fronts.



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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #25 
In order to have the proper W&G hand crank for Civil War reenacting, it would need to be a glass tension model. The Automatic didn't come out until 1875. I used to do CW reenacting 20 years ago. 

As for hand crank setups, the problem is getting the cranking direction right. W&G goes clockwise, Singers Counter clockwise on the machine rotation. A Singer set up will give you a machine that cranks backwards. My "pot drive" will crank the right way. I hope to get a prototype done by end of July. 

-Bruce
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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #26 
A quick question for anyone out there that may have a similar W&G Automatic. My needle bar is stuck, but not owning one, or having one to compare to, I'm wondering what position in the cycle the needle bar has become frozen. How much of the needle bar sticks out of the top when it's at it's highest, and how much at it's lowest? (by 'top' I mean the top flat surface of the cast iron of the head). If I were to give the bar a wee tap from an 8 ounce hammer... I don't want to do that if the bar is all the way down... that's asking for trouble.  Knowing how far down is 'all the way down' could be a great help. =)

from what I've able to freeze frame on youtube vids, it appears as though mine is stuck in the middle of it's throw. With the top showing about an inch and a quarter and the bottom to the needle lock nut showing about an inch.

IMG_4199.jpg  IMG_4200.jpg

*note: feed dogs removed, pressure foot turned away.


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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #27 
Can you get some idea of the movement of the needle bar by checking page 7 and 10 of the Willcox & Gibbs Automatic PDF? It looks like the needle bar nut almost hits the presser foot in its raised position. It looks like the needle bar nut is about 1/4" below that bar when the needle is in the highest position.

I'm wondering if a smaller hammer than 8 oz would work a little better. Do you have Tri-Flow? I know letting it sit over night or couple nights if you turn it over for a bit has helped with stubborn screws for me.

Janey

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Jim/Steelsewing

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Reply with quote  #28 
I'm not all that comfortable with an eight ounce hammer and have been using the blunt end of a coal chisel for light raps - and I do have a tack and an eyelet hammer. Evidence seems to indicate that the bar is quite nearly at it's midpoint, and yes, there is always a can of Tri-flow on the bench.  It will come loose, it's just a matter of when - or at least I hope it comes loose. Three treadles so far, and none of them work. I can be a very patient person, but eventually there may come a time when I get frustrated enough to swear them off and ask Steve how much room he has in that van! [frown]
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BarefootLizzie

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Reply with quote  #29 
It's a UK seller, had a couple for sale lately (I'm in the UK) that seller sells vsm things often, not heard if any scam issues via UK vsm circles from the seller although it's occasionally discussed as possible. The seller has a large following here on that site, I know 4 people who have bought FWs from him. Always uses the same background photo set up too.

As ever, buyer beware in any auction sales of course

hope that helps, Lizzie
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #30 
Welcome Lizzie!
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macybaby

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Reply with quote  #31 
here is my "mguivered" machine.   I was very happy to get the flywheel,  DH fabricated the rest.







He moved the knob farther out so it would be a bit easier to turn.





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pgf

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpwest
Before you get too excited about making it a handcrank...I have both electric and treadle plus a Singer and a Wheeler & Wilson handcrank. I love the treadle Wilcox. It is, maybe the only, treadle that won’t let you run it backwards. It’s a beautiful machine to use.


Interestingly, the American-style W&G geared hand crank can't be turned backwards either, if the gear-oiling wick is installed properly.  It sits just "downstream" of where the two gears meet, and if you turn the crank backwards it gets pulled into the gears, causing them to jam.  Given the non-reversing design of the treadle, I can't believe this is a coincidence.  You can see the wick in the picture.

(I have a W&G treadle, too, but haven't found the right rubber ball yet.)

paul

Attached Images
jpeg w_and_g_no_1.jpg (60.40 KB, 4 views)


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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #33 
That's not a gear oiling wick, it's actually the brake similar to the rubber ball on the treadle that stops the machine from running backwards. It's supposed to be a piece of leather belting. You can see in the photo how the leather fits into the frame and is held in place by a set screw. 

When I got this American hand crank it still had a piece of old leather in the hole. It was reading the manual that alerted me to the fact that there was supposed to be a leather piece for a brake. You can see it in the illustration from the manual. 

- Bruce SIL10-469-03a.jpg  Willcox & Gibbs hand crank brake.jpg 

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #34 
Interesting.  When I got my American hand crank it had a piece of wicking in that spot, held by that set screw.  I've never seen a manual which actually discusses the American hand crank.  I certainly can't tell from the images in the intro pages (that you copied, above) whether that material is meant to be leather or wicking.

I wonder which of our respective previous owners had it right?  ;-)

paul


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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #35 
For what it's worth, I remember reading somewhere about the leather brake on the American model hand crank, so I looked into it. The manual does show the brake present. When I cleaned up my hand crank, under the layer of grime was the set screw. I loosened that screw and pushed out the remnants of the leather belting that was in it - obvious signs of the original brake.

I didn't have any 1/8" belting, so used a piece of 3/16" belting to make the new brake in the photos. 1/8" belting is also what the original Willcox & Gibbs British hand crank I have used as the belt. That belt broke, so I need to get 1/8" belting to replace it. In the meantime, I am crippling along with 3/16" belting, the common size used on American machines. 

Since a piece of 1/8" belting was found in the hole in my American W&G hand crank, and my British W&G hand crank used 1/8" belting, it's reasonable to assume the belt piece used for a brake on the American hand crank is proper and what W&G intended to use and did indeed use. There is nothing in the W&G manuals, operators or parts, that shows any kind of wicking. There would be no need to use wicking to lubricate the gears. They are exposed, easy to get to for oiling and wicking would have been a poor choice for a brake since it will not wear as well as leather belting.

I don't think previous owners would have an bearing on the material used other than to use whatever was at hand that would fit in the hole and do the job. 

-Bruce
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #36 
Well okay, then -- I'm convinced.  I agree that the wicking always seemed a bit fragile for the braking task -- leather makes more sense.  The fact that you had leather remnants under the set screw is the clincher.  The rest of your argument is compelling, as well.

Thanks!

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #37 
Just following up on this aging thread-drift...   (sorry Jim!)

Bruce -- it turns out I saved the original piece of "wick" that I removed from my crank base.  And on further examination, with a dental pick and a loupe, I'd have to agree that it's (very old) leather.

wg_brake.jpg 

As it happened, I have a piece of low-quality treadle belting, which was probably meant to be 3/16", but varies down to about 5/32".  A piece of that works fine as a brake.

paul


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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #38 
I'm using a piece of 3/16" belting as the brake on my W&G American model hand crank. I just trimmed it down on one end until it fit in the hole and tightened the set screw. It works fine also 

I did get some 1/8" belting to put on my British Willcox & Gibbs, which looks extremely skinny next to a 3/16" belt. What cracked me up is they sent two wire staples for regular treadle belts with it! No way.

My British model still has the original W&G threaded brass tube that joins the ends, but I can make those anyway. I have a selection of hobby brass tubing and threading dies. I'll have to make note of what sizes I'm using and what threading tap I use and write it up for posting. I made one of the threaded brass tubes for a regular 3/16" belt to try on one of my treadles and it works fine and looks good. Smooth running, too. I think I still have one on my bench unused. I put the one I made on my Davis Vertical Feed treadle. 

When I get around to swapping out the oversize belt on my British hand crank I'll take a piece of the leftover belt and fit a proper brake on my American model. 

- Bruce
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