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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #1 
I was playing around with the Victor yesterday to see if I could get it to sew.  The upper thread keeps breaking and I can't get it to make a stitch.  I removed the covers so I could watch it as I slowly turned the hand wheel.   The beak of the shuttle will pick up the top thread loop but the loop won't slip around the shuttle.  It gets "stuck" on the point of the shuttle for some reason.  The pic below shows where it gets hung up.

DSC07768.jpg 
Putting enough tension on the end of thread by holding it, and the thread "stuck" on the point, the lower edge of the shuttle cuts the thread before it has a chance to slip around the shuttle.

I've never had so much trouble getting a shuttle machine to stitch.  I've polished the shuttle, verified that there is clearance for the thread around it.  I can't figure it out.  Advice/suggestions welcome!

Thanks,
Greg

This machine has a really interesting shuttle (Thanks Dan for showing me how to thread it).

DSC07766.jpg  DSC07767.jpg 

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pgf

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Are you sure the timing is right?  Does the needle do the little double dip that many machines do?  If so, the shuttle needs to catch the loop on the first dip, and not the second.

Does it happen when things are as pictured, i.e., no cloth?  If only with cloth, it might be that the takeup isn't producing slack at the right time.

If it happens without cloth, and you're sure there are no nicks/rough spots on the shuttle, then the stuckage must be further back -- is the thread path all around the shuttle loose?

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stitchntime

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgf
Are you sure the timing is right?  Does the needle do the little double dip that many machines do?  If so, the shuttle needs to catch the loop on the first dip, and not the second.

Does it happen when things are as pictured, i.e., no cloth?  If only with cloth, it might be that the takeup isn't producing slack at the right time.

If it happens without cloth, and you're sure there are no nicks/rough spots on the shuttle, then the stuckage must be further back -- is the thread path all around the shuttle loose?


The shuttle catches the loop on the second dip, just before the needle lifts up.

It happens with or without cloth.

There are no nicks in the shuttle. It was smooth before I started (looked almost new), but I went over it with steel wool to be sure.

Timing was my first thought.  Is that where I should be looking?  The machine seems like it's in extraordinary condition for it's age, which makes me wonder if I'm not the first person that had issues getting it to sew. The screw heads including the needle clamp look like they've hardly seen a screw driver in the last 148 years.

Greg
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #4 
If I were to adjust the timing, my instinct tells me to adjust the eccentric crank for the shuttle carrier on the left end of the main shaft.  Is that what I should adjust for timing?
DSC07769_LI.jpg   
Thank you,
Greg


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Reply with quote  #5 
I hate to ask... but I had a machine once that kept breaking the thread and wouldn't sew. Drove me nuts until my sister walked by, took one look at what I was doing and asked: Have you tried another thread? Nope, hadn't, and I did, and it sewed. So when I'm stuck like that, it's always new thread and often new needle. Don't know if that will help, but hey, thought to mention it. It's one of those things I do anymore without thinking about it.
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #6 
Jim,
Funny you say that.  When I started out I was using an old spool of cotton thread.  I figured, 148 year old machine, why not use 100 year old thread?  As soon as I had an issue I switched to a new spool of poly thread as the first T-shooting step; same result.

I should know by now that just because you have old spools of thread around, they look better on display than used!

Greg
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #7 
The reason (as I understand it) for the second "dip" of the needle is to provide a bigger loop for the shuttle to pass through.  The shuttle should definitely pick up the loop on the first dip.

I've never timed a machine like yours, but I'd say your guess is a good one.  Have you had it loose previously?  (The real question:  how much have you dis/reassembled in cleaning it up.  It sounds like "not much" if it's in really good shape.  Perhaps its hardly been used because it's been breaking the top thread for the last 100 years.  ;-)

A clue to whether that's the right place to do the timing might be whether the feed dogs are doing the right thing relative to the needle.  If so, then the timing control is past where the feed dog linkage becomes separate, which would definitely be in that area you've highlighted.  (OTOH, the feed dogs probably don't move much between the dips, so you might not be able to tell much that way.)

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #8 
I'm pretty certain the issue is the timing.  The timing of both the shuttle and the feed dogs were off.  I'm working on adjusting the timing of those two mechanisms in relation to the needle, since they seem simpler to adjust.  Is that the correct method?  This is the most I've done with machine timing, so I feel a little like I'm fumbling in the dark.

I have the feed dogs timed; they were feeding when the needle was down when I started.  The shuttle timing has been a lot trickier. The thread will pass over the shuttle, but the take-up doesn't draw up the thread completely, like the shuttle is a little late.   But when I advance the shuttle, it doesn't pick up the top thread consistently. I think I'm in the ball park though.

Greg
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #9 
What I've learned today:
The 29x3 needle works as a replacement.

This machine doesn't have a double "dip" motion in needle travel.  The needle descends to a point, pauses, then continues down.  It doesn't raise back up slightly before it drops to it's lowest point.  This is what's giving me the most grief now because I can't get the shuttle to pick up the thread consistently.  I think if it did that motion it'd be stitching.  There is some clearance between the needle and the beak of the shuttle, so if there was a way to reduce that I think it would pick it up.

I think I made about a hundred adjustments to the shuttle timing today, little bit at a time.

Greg
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Chillin in NC

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Hi Greg, just got in from work and errands.  Sorry you're having a time with this.  Thanks for the info on the needle.  Have to see if we have any.

I just made a short vid of the shuttle in relation to the needle.  I just PM'd it to you.  I don't know it it will work or help.



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pgf

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Reply with quote  #11 
Did you have to drop the 29 needle a bit to make it work?  I think that means it probably really takes a Boye 20, like my Howe and my White VS1.

I'm surprised by the needle motion (pause, and then continue) since I can't see what that accomplishes.  I was going to suggest checking the cams that control the needle bar, to be sure they're clean/straight/etc, but now we can just ask Dan.  Dan -- does your machine do that pause thing too?  

paul

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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #12 
Paul, I just sent this to Greg but I'll see if it works here and you can watch the shuttle work.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QpNER5ndn4KJPhgNgPbdohfMZkecoNcP/view?usp=drive_web

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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #13 
You can see in the beginning of the vid that there is no pause.  When it slows I'm turning it by hand and the stutter in the motion is me. 
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #14 
Paul, I didn't have to drop the 29x3 needle to get it to work.  The 29x3 needle distance from the butt to the eye is the same as the original needle's distance from the top of the notch to the eye.

Here's a pic to show the cam that actuates the needle bar.  You can see that there is no upward movement once the needle hits the first low point.  The top of of the cam in the image you can see that the needle moves downward (cam groove moves to the right), but it doesn't move up after that first "dip". I tried putting the needle in with a slight twist to see if that would kick the thread out enough for the beak to pick up the loop, but that only marginally helped.
DSC07770_LI.jpg   
I'm unable to watch that video to compare it to mine.

Thanks for the help.

Greg

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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #15 
Sorry Greg. Do you know another way I can send this to you?



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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #16 
The good news is I finally got it to stitch, slowly by hand, manually making sure the shuttle picks up the top thread.  So I think I'm close...

DSC07771.jpg 

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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #17 
Ok, you're getting there!
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #18 
Excellent progress, Greg!  I see what you mean about the cam -- definitely no dip there.

Dan -- if your video started out on Google Photos (likely, if you shot it with your phone), then the easiest thing to do is put it in a semi-public album, right from Photos.  Click on the "share" icon at the top of the video's page (looks like a '<' symbol, with little circles at all the points), then click on "Create Link".  That will give you a URL that you can share with people.  No password required.

(You can get back to that album yourself (if, say, you want to add to it, or edit it to add a title, text, etc) with the URL.  If you Edit the album and add a title, it will then show up in the Sharing menu, but until you do that, I know of no way to get back to it except with the URL.)

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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #19 
Thanks Paul, I'll see what I can do.
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Chillin in NC

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Paul, Greg, Lets see if this works

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/kKCueh2dT5-oYg5Zue8Z7A.dfYHQKD4grppcsUIQauN4_

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #21 
Dan,
Thank you, that video worked. Unfortunately it looks like yours is timed very close to how mine was timde originally, when it wouldn't stitch and the thread wouldn't pass over the shuttle.  When adjusting it, I timed the shuttle the way that the shuttle is timed on my No.2: with the needle raising just as the shuttle is almost past it.  That fixed the breaking thread problem and allows it to stitch normally, but now I have the thread pickup issue.  Back to the drawing board I guess.  Thanks for the help.

Here's a video of how mine is timed now.


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pgf

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Reply with quote  #22 
Cool.  I've never even heard of Amazon Photos before.

Edit:  Removing everything else I wrote.  I was confused.

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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #23 
Greg, I'm glad to know I got something right, if not your machine ant least I learned how to post a vid!  lol

Is there anything else you'd like to see that might help?

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillin in NC
Greg, I'm glad to know I got something right, if not your machine ant least I learned how to post a vid!  lol

Is there anything else you'd like to see that might help?


Dan,
I may go back to the drawing board tomorrow.  Thing is, when my shuttle was timed the way yours is two things weren't happening: the thread wouldn't pass over the shuttle, and if I manually forced it to it wouldn't take up the slack in the stitch, leaving large loops on the bottom.  The take-up lever reaches it's highest point before the needle does and there's nothing to take up the loop that the shuttle just passed through.

Maybe a video with thread and fabric (no plates)?  I've never had issues like this getting a machine working, so trying to get this right is both interesting and frustrating.

Greg
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #25 
Ok, I'll see what I can come up with.  You will have success!!
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #26 
Greg, 

Here's another view showing the needle thread capturing the bobbin thread.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/eLB78lkrTuOhi1-fC-c2HA.qS1Zt2EZqJP2v5q3CE2uR5

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #27 
Dan,
Thanks.  I'm going to try again tomorrow.  I'll let you know how I make out. 

Greg
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #28 
Dan,
I've tried to replicate the timing of your machine, where the beak picks up the top thread just as it's ascending.  At least that's how it looks on the last video you sent.  I noticed that when I did that my needle is fully raised before the shuttle passes it.  I don't understand how it could make a stitch this way.  In your video you're using your hand to take up the extra thread in the shuttle loop, but that wouldn't happen if you were sewing.  I also have the same issue as before where the thread doesn't pass around the shuttle; I had to sort of jog the wheel and pull on the top thread to make it slip around the shuttle.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Greg
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #29 
Morning Greg,

Yep, I always use my hand on the initial pickup. I'll see if I can a vid of it stitching with the cover plates off.  It may be a little later this morning.

I can't tell how close in timing both machines are - they do look close.  What I notice on mine when picking up the bobbin thread is:

1. Needle is as high as it will go.  2. The shuttle is all the way forward - toward me. 3. Feed dogs are away from me right before dropping.

Hope this is of some value to you.


Edit.  Just watched your vid again and I see where you're pulling on the top thread the shuttle catches and it pulled up.  I believe you said you checked for smoothness of the shuttle?  It may be nothing other than being pulled by the top thread tho.

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #30 
Forming a stitch can sometimes require that cloth be present, since it affects the opening of the loop as the needle withdraws.  I see that on the Victor you should be able to have cloth present even with the slide plates off.  That might (or might not! :-) be illuminating.

paul

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillin in NC


Edit.  Just watched your vid again and I see where you're pulling on the top thread the shuttle catches and it pulled up.  I believe you said you checked for smoothness of the shuttle?  It may be nothing other than being pulled by the top thread tho.


If I don't pull on the thread and jog the hand wheel the thread will just be pulled toward me.  If I don't jog the wheel the shuttle will just cut the thread (because the needle is high the thread is pinched between the shuttle and it's mating surface, the bottom edge of the shuttle cuts it).  I have checked for smoothness of the shuttle.  I can't find any nicks or burrs, or even corrosion.

Thanks for the help!  It's much appreciated.

Greg
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #32 
Greg, please clarify for me.  Are you saying when the shuttle is coming towards you and passes the needle the shuttle cuts the top thread?
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillin in NC
Greg, please clarify for me.  Are you saying when the shuttle is coming towards you and passes the needle the shuttle cuts the top thread?


Yes, that's correct.  Because the needle is on it's way up as the shuttle passes it (towards me) part of the thread is between the shuttle and it's mating surface.  The sharp edge of the shuttle bottom doesn't allow for a lot of tension on that thread before it cuts it.  This is what has been causing the thread to "break" since I started tinkering with it.

Is there two much play in the shuttle carrier?
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #34 
Something else my wife & I just noticed.  I have our last vids set up side by side.  When I do this we see your needle dropping sooner than mine by almost 1/3 the length of the shuttle which tells me we're further apart on timing than I originally thought.  
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgf
Forming a stitch can sometimes require that cloth be present, since it affects the opening of the loop as the needle withdraws.  I see that on the Victor you should be able to have cloth present even with the slide plates off.  That might (or might not! :-) be illuminating.

paul


Paul, agree 100%.  Not only having the cloth present but even the thickness will affect the stitch.  When originally getting the W&W #8 stitching I was using 1 thickness of fabric with very poor results.  My bride 'suggested' using 2 layers of fabric as if I were really making something.  That was eye opening - at least to someone who had never sewn before.  No adjustments were necessary and the machine stitched fine.

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #36 
I'm going to ask a question whose answer may make me feel very stupid:  What direction should the hand wheel be turning?
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Reply with quote  #37 
I may be stating the obvious. It seems tips of shuttles are timed, slightly above needle eye, in skarf area of needle on up stroke. Skarf area provides clearance between needle and shuttle. Thread passes in needle groove on other side, on down stroke, thru cloth, loop is formed on up stroke. Cloth provides friction, and maintains tread position, letting needle rise for loop formation.

Take up of thread early in up stroke, reduces loop, resulting in skipped stitches, an example is incorrecty timed check spring.

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitcarlson
I may be stating the obvious. It seems tips of shuttles are timed, slightly above needle eye, in skarf area of needle on up stroke. Skarf area provides clearance between needle and shuttle. Thread passes in needle groove on other side, on down stroke, thru cloth, loop is formed on up stroke. Cloth provides friction, and maintains tread position, letting needle rise for loop formation.

Take up of thread early in up stroke, reduces loop, resulting in skipped stitches, an example is incorrecty timed check spring.


Thanks Dave.  I'm pretty sure I've been turning the hand wheel the wrong direction this entire time.  Doh!  When I turn it CW my timing looks just like Dan's, except now the feed dog timing is off, which I never should have touched anyway, if I'd been turning the friggin' thing the correct direction. 

I do have a tendency to over-complicate the solutions to problems by skipping steps in trouble-shooting.  Live and learn....

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Greg
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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #39 
One or two humbling experiences a day is good for the constitution. Of course I neglected to read page 1 of the manual. It stitches perfectly, although I'm unable to upload a pic.

Greg 
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #40 
In your defense, we should have asked about the hand wheel direction the very first thing! Kind of like, "Is it plugged in?" for more modern appliances.


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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #41 
Thanks for trying to make me feel better Paul. 

I've never owned a CW machine before, and it feels unnatural.  I have to think about it even now that I know it.

Fun stuff. 

Thanks all

Greg
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #42 
LOL!!  I started to ask you about that last night but thought better of it.  Opps  But in your defense my bride of 46 plus yrs continues to remind me that when all else fails, read the flippin instructions.  [biggrin]

exhibit A 
20200917_113802.jpg 
All kidding aside here's my vid making stitches.

https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/2n03VFWuQSaN4_vDQ3SiYA.L_UsmJe8Rzshakh7oXIKzw


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pgf

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Reply with quote  #43 
It gets better. Once you have a couple of them you doubt yourself all the time. ;-)

Sometime ask me how many machines of mine "haven't sewn" because either the needle was in backwards, or I was threading it backwards, or both.



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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #44 
Greg, I was putting my vid up as you were typing.  I'm slow.  So I repeated what you and Paul already said.  Not trying to rub it in. 

You have a great machine and I'm still looking forward to seeing it work!

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #45 
I appreciate all the patience and help.  Now I can work on cleaning it up a little more.

Thanks,
Greg


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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #47 
Congratulations!

(Your video is also a wonderful testament as to why old wooden thread spools are so much better than the new plastic ones.  [smile] [smile] [wink]

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stitchntime

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Reply with quote  #48 
I didn't have it in the center hole.  Oops.

It's stitches great!

Edit:  Made a new one with a wooden spool just for you Paul!
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Reply with quote  #49 
My Standard turns clockwise as well. Rotary rather than shuttle, but clockwise none the less.
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Chillin in NC

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Reply with quote  #50 
Awesome Greg.  Stitches look great and the machine sounds happy that it's working after all the yrs of being dormant!  

Did you put the timing back original or leave it?

Speaking of wooden spools is there such a thing as a spool winder?  I would respool the thread if for no other reason than the better look.

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