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pgf

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Reply with quote  #51 
You can see little flames in the lower part of the press, so I assume the tube is for gas.  There's also a tube going to the top part, so I guess both halves are heated.  Must be pretty hot!

My machines have all been regular domestic W&G chain stitchers.  I'm down to 4, including one glass tension machine that I didn't count before, since we were talking about automatics.  (I now have a hand crank, a treadle, a cabinet electric, and the glass tension treadle.)  So I've not seen or used a hat machine.

Metallic green?  Wouldn't have said that was your style...  do you also own a hot pink Featherweight?  ;-) :-)

You've mentioned "model 64" twice now -- what does that mean?  I've never heard of W&G machines described with a model number like that.  Also, if you have a serial number, I can get you a date to within a year or two.

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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #52 
Wow, Paul, great pictures on the W&G tensioner assembly and disassembly! Thank you!
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #53 
Hi Paul,  Well every once in a while it is ok to go against the norm.....like the time my brother (who is now passed) warned me to stop riding my Harley while wearing a Yamaha dirt bike shirt.  He said some people might get very upset over it and attack me over it.....so that made me want to wear that shirt every time I rode.  Yeah, a metallic green machine might be kind of cool.  No hot pink here but I'm not afraid to have a pink machine being the girls outnumber the guys in the house (Mrs long with triplets that consist of 2 girls 1 boy make it 3 against 2).  If one of the kids wants to use the machine because it is metallic green all the better.  Oh, my favorite Corvette always was a 1966 in metallic green so now I've got an excuse to like the color change for at least one machine.  Here is a picture from the auction.  This gent uses allot of redwood bases and sprays that with clear also.  I also won an auction for a machine out of UK that looks like it is cracked where the serial number goes.  Picture of that as well.  Now working on the glass tension discs machine.  I'll need to find someone who can speak from experience using one before I buy the hat machine to finish the collection if it ever gets that crazy. I'm really interested in your take on the K model hand crank picture showing the serial number.  It does not look right and maybe even cracked there?  Best regards, Mike MetallicGreenWillcoxGibbs(2).jpg  MetallicGreenWillcoxGibbs(1).jpg  WillcoxGibbsUK(5).jpg  WillcoxGibbsUK(4).jpg  WillcoxGibbsUK(3).jpg  WillcoxGibbsUK(2).jpg  WillcoxGibbsUK(1).jpg 
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #54 
Hi again Paul,  The mention of the model 64 was from buying Alex Askeroff's kindle book on Wilcox and Gibbs.  In the book he states every single change resulted in a new model number however slight the change and at number 64 it became the automatic sewing machine (with auto tensioner).  He mentions it being the most common of the machines.  Think the book was 3 dollars but worth it to me in the library.  It has some interesting models in the book.  Best regards, Mike

Edited: Paul,  I'd really like your take on that K model hand crank serial number.  I bought it because I made an offer a good bit less than what the seller had for buy it now and gave them 1 day.  They accepted.  In description all it states is "a very early serial number".  That piece of metal where the serial number is substantial.  I can fix it if it is cracked but not sure if that is just how it was ground down  or what.  The 00 followed by the 1623 is puzzling to me.  It looks like it was done by two separate stamps and if so possibly it is not cracked but just ground down unevenly?
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Bags

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Reply with quote  #55 
Mike and Paul, When I saw the flames I immediately thought of steam to set the shape of the hat. When weaving baskets, if I'm having a hard time getting the right shape I'll wet the basket and put in on a bowl or something to resemble the shape I want and then let it dry.

Now I'm wanting one of these hat machines!  I can use my umbrella swift or antique skein winder to hold the fiber.  Now, just the machine!
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pgf

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Reply with quote  #56 
The green machine (A260480) is from either 1874 or 1875.  That's based on dates given out by Graham Forsdyke (which are based on W&G factory records) for serial numbers that fall on either side.  Graham is usually available on the ISMACS mailing list, and the W&G list on groups.io.  I've been keeping notes for several years on the dates he's given out.  (He knows, and even proofread my notes at one point.  He just doesn't want to publish the original records.)

Yes, that 00 s/n is odd.  Even the earlier machines with fewer digits never had leading zeros, and by the time the automatic tension machines came along they (almost) all had a letter prefix:  either 'A' or 'B'.  So something has happened to that machine along the way.  Likely it'll stay a mystery.


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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #57 
Hi Carol,

  Umbrella swift and skein winder....you gotta be a weaver.  Maybe we can talk off line if you are into weaving.  I have a 12 shaft countermarche, flying shuttle, overhead beater, with dual warp beams I made here.  The overhead beater and flying shuttle is a Leclerc and a couple other parts but I took plans for a German design called a flying-8 and then heavily modified the heck out of the design.  Instead of frankentreadle it is a frankenloom.  Lots of custom design stuff on it.  Yup, I wanna hat sewer also but I have studied lots of pic's on internet and if you call those feed dogs on those things they are rabid dogs because they are nothing like I've seen before.  Here is a picture from internet.  Not for sewing stretchy spandex, lycra or knits like the 48k is that is for certain. 

  For Paul, please let me know when you get a chance about that 00 1623 "K" hand crank serial number.  Looking at the pic again I'm certain it is cracked.  If they super glued it I'll need to remove any before welding on the back side the crack as it will give off cyanide gas but it can most definitely be fixed with some 2.0mm stainless rod and an inverter welder with ease then a tad bit of finish work.

Best regards, Mike WillcoxGibbsHatFeedDogs.jpg 

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #58 
Paul,

  Thanks for the serial number info...I was typing while you had already sent 4 minutes before me.  With Union Special machines there is always a "Z" suffix added to the end of the model number if custom ordered stuff was added to machine.  if it is a custom job mod of an existing machine or a prototype maybe it had two letter O or do you think it was two zeros....a mystery for sure.

  If I'm lucky the seller won't be lazy (and upset at accepting my lower offer) and everything will arrive in good order.

Best regards,
Mike

  
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Bags

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Reply with quote  #59 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6cvh
Hi Carol,

  Umbrella swift and skein winder....you gotta be a weaver.  Maybe we can talk off line if you are into weaving.  I have a 12 shaft countermarche, flying shuttle, overhead beater, with dual warp beams I made here.  The overhead beater and flying shuttle is a Leclerc and a couple other parts but I took plans for a German design called a flying-8 and then heavily modified the heck out of the design.  Instead of frankentreadle it is a frankenloom.  Lots of custom design stuff on it.  Yup, I wanna hat sewer also but I have studied lots of pic's on internet and if you call those feed dogs on those things they are rabid dogs because they are nothing like I've seen before.  Here is a picture from internet.  Not for sewing stretchy spandex, lycra or knits like the 48k is that is for certain. 


Best regards, Mike WillcoxGibbsHatFeedDogs.jpg 


Mike, I'm drooling as I read about your frankenloom.  Oh, man!  The only thing it's missing for me would be an automatic bean grinder and espresso maker [biggrin] !  

Looks like I would have to take a training course on controlling those rabid dogs!
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #60 
Hi Paul,  I bought a straw hat machine model 200 Willcox and Gibbs.  This is same gent who sold me my restored Grover and Baker no 9 that is absolutely stunning.  I bought the no 9 so that I may analyze the parts when making some needed parts for my two Grover and Baker No 1 improved lock stitch industrials from the 1870 (one I think is a prototype and even earlier.....certainly 1 of 1 left/remaining).  Anyways, this machine might be from the late 1890's or early 1900's and I'd sure like to nail down the date better.  Here is the serial:  BS619115  .....  So we will soon enough have three.  One being a "K" hand crank with leather belt, one being a model 64 hand crank (auto tensioner) and this model 200.  This will likely be enough on W&G:-)  These are his pictures.  I have similar on the no 9 which is even more amazing in some respects as the bed of the machine has stunning art work.  Best regards, Mike

WillcoxGibbsNo200(11).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(10).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(9).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(8).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(7).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(6).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(5).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(4).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(3).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(2).jpg  WillcoxGibbsNo200(1).jpg 

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pgf

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Reply with quote  #61 
Very nice, Mike -- can't wait to see you sporting one of your new straw hats!

Unlike for the domestic W&G machines, I believe the factory records for the industrials don't exist.  Can't help with the date...

paul

p.s. Sometimes it's worth starting a new thread -- this machine might deserve its own!  :-)

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #62 
Hi Paul,

  Maybe some day a new thread.  For now it will be in a cue of machines coming here that I sweat each and every shipment.  Got another question......sorry.....I heard rumor of a zig zag Willcox and Gibbs.  Is there such an animal ?  I read about the model 10 and how it supposedly went back into the 1890's at some point of that decade then later had oil distribution system.  Watching auctions I've seen they all seem to have an "L" prefix and the oil type are identical except the addition to the side and are later than the 1 million number.  

   The gent who sold me the mean green machine from 1875 said he does the glass units also but they won't sew as quickly...interesting observation I wanted to pass on.  

   Barely missed out on a glass tensioning setup myself and am a bit envious....they look very cool for certain.  

Best regards,
Mike

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Bags

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Reply with quote  #63 
Mike that is absolutely lovely!  How exciting!  I agree with Paul, can't wait to see you sewing and wearing your hat!
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #64 
I'm working on getting used to the W&G glass tension machine, and to treadling. The glass tension needs adjusting periodically - it seems to slip out of adjustment sometimes. But because of that wonderful chain stitch, I just rip it out and practice on another piece of similar fabric while adjusting the tension until the stitch is looking good again. So much fun!!
Mask making... W&G Mask Sewing.jpg 

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #65 
Hi BlueShadow1, I was discussing the glass tension discs with an avid restorer/seller of these machines I bought one from (with auto tensioner).  He said the glass tensioner is not reliable under high speeds.  Possibly your changes are occurring as you change speeds while treadling?  This would be good to know if that is the case.  Best regards, Mike
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #66 
Good thought, Mike! I'm doing a lot of stopping and starting due to the nature of this project, so I can imagine I'm sewing at different speeds.
I wonder if it's just vibrating itself out of tension as I sew. I will try sewing a few long seams to see what the tension will do.
It's not a big problem, though - the occasional re-setting of the tension is a small price to pay for being able to actually sew with this marvelous machine to make something I will actually be using (smile!)
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #67 
Ohmygosh, Mike...I just read back though the thread to catch up, and I am just pea green with envy at your wonderful find of the W&G hat machine!! It's beautiful!! I can hardly wait to read about your sewing with it!
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #68 
Hi BlueShadow1 :-)  yes I have engaged with this seller for about a year plus.  He is selling off his life's collection.  In the 1970's he visited the original building and bought a bunch of stuff is my understanding.  i think he is in 80's but know he is retired as textile engineer.  This all was a labor of love for him and he seems quite pleased to sell to me.  We have developed a distant friendship of sorts.  He had an open heart surgery, has to get medical care over distance/internet, having issues with his eyes etc.  I'm happy to become the next caretaker of at least two of his collection being this piece and a beautiful no 9 Grover and Baker.  I bought the no 9 so I can have a complete machine as the mechanics are similar to the two no 1 industrial improved lock stitch I will have to fabricate many parts for (much oober rarer machines).  With the COVID I will not be able to open up a full factory line(s) until the vaccine is working and implemented due to social distancing and other restrictions.....so now I am back to original plan of having a large room of 1800's and 100 year plus industrials with maybe 1 very telented sewer etc.  I am back to buying machines right now for this purpose but we already have many.  Right now I'm working on a Wheeler and Wilson no 12 with an early 51k serial number.  People seem to think it was 1st or 2nd year production putting it at late 1880's !  :-)  I'm on the hunt for more no 12 machines if anyone wants to part with them at a fair price btw.  (not sure if I am allowed to say this on this thread and if not I'll edit and apologize).  Best regards, Mike

Oh, BTW you can always put a more modern pre-tensioner before the machine and share the tension with the glass.  I don't think anyone will penalize you for doing this.
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #69 
You are so lucky to have that source of beautiful machines!!
Not sure what this means...could you elaborate?

 
"Oh, BTW you can always put a more modern pre-tensioner before the machine and share the tension with the glass."
 
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #70 
Hi BlueShadow,  These pictures may be a bit extreme but give an example.  In this case I ordered 4 pieces of tension device and welded to stainless round bar with gusset and made a stainless sheet base the marine ply (treated chemically for termites) could be attached to.  I can move this in a portable fashion and have up to 4 threads pre-tensioned on the thread path before they get to whatever machine it is being used with.  I was doing some experimentation with a cover stitch machine that took 4 threads.  On our hand crank patcher I have added a 2nd pre-tension device to it as most come wtih two but mine only had one.  For your case it might even things up so-to-speak under varying speeds.  Kind of cheating but since it doesn't alter the design of the machine who cares?  Just not sure if it will work in this case or not.    Imagination is the limit.  In HAM radio an old trick is to tie the ends of the antenna rope to a weight when it goes over the branches.  When the tree moves it still provides a somewhat even tension to the field expedient antenna legs.  I have wondered before in tricky/sticky thread path/tension situations if such a thing on a much smaller scale would work (maybe a weight in the grams or an ounce or two) that could give an auto tension of sorts for the thread path.  Sorry but I'm OCD when it comes to thread path and tensions on machines that take loopers and have light tensions on said loopers.  Best regards, Mike PreTensioner(2).jpg  PreTensioner(1).jpg 
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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #71 
Of course you are allowed to post that here, or anywhere in this site.
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #72 
Wow, Mike, that is SOME tensioning system! I am SO impressed at the thought you put into this and the talent and care you took to build it!!
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #73 
Steve, as you can see in the above picture, "our" machine is working beautifully! [smile]
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Finnchik

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Reply with quote  #74 

I recently acquired a beautiful W&G chainstitcher. I am searching for the screw that holds attachments on the bed of the machine.Anyone seen one for sale recently? 


Finnchik
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BlueShadow1

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Reply with quote  #75 
Here's one attached to a hemmer on eBay...decent price so far, too...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-WILLCOX-GIBBS-Narrow-Hemmer-Attachment-Patent-July-26-1964-Reissue-1971/274390733617?hash=item3fe2f65331:g:qrgAAOSwXQpe3Uen
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Mavis

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Reply with quote  #76 
Mike:  This is impressive!  Well done. (Did you see someone has Ham radio books in the Free category?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ke6cvh
Hi BlueShadow,  These pictures may be a bit extreme but give an example.  In this case I ordered 4 pieces of tension device and welded to stainless round bar with gusset and made a stainless sheet base the marine ply (treated chemically for termites) could be attached to.  I can move this in a portable fashion and have up to 4 threads pre-tensioned on the thread path before they get to whatever machine it is being used with.  I was doing some experimentation with a cover stitch machine that took 4 threads.  On our hand crank patcher I have added a 2nd pre-tension device to it as most come wtih two but mine only had one.  For your case it might even things up so-to-speak under varying speeds.  Kind of cheating but since it doesn't alter the design of the machine who cares?  Just not sure if it will work in this case or not.    Imagination is the limit.  In HAM radio an old trick is to tie the ends of the antenna rope to a weight when it goes over the branches.  When the tree moves it still provides a somewhat even tension to the field expedient antenna legs.  I have wondered before in tricky/sticky thread path/tension situations if such a thing on a much smaller scale would work (maybe a weight in the grams or an ounce or two) that could give an auto tension of sorts for the thread path.  Sorry but I'm OCD when it comes to thread path and tensions on machines that take loopers and have light tensions on said loopers.  Best regards, Mike PreTensioner(2).jpg  PreTensioner(1).jpg 

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #77 
Hi Mavis,

  Thanks for the kind words.  I'm pretty much focused on construction projects here and the upcoming biz.  I've been an Extra class several decades and was very much into HAM.  I've got a complete station here and was working for years on a design of balanced antenna coupler (I've made other designs before) but shelved it for now.  

  Recently I got a very nice Singer 9W for 60 dollars, an 1898 Singer 32-1 zig zag for 205 dollars, and working potentially on a Singer 107w with puller and Abe Gellman (which later became Cametron) attachment that has cams.  This one is set up for a 3 step zig zag which I really like.  All in the long cue of machines coming this way.  And....I just got a Typical 6760md3 near Manila (computer operated direct drive with auto back tack, auto thread trim, and programmable stitch count).  I'm uncertain if it has x-feed and verifying but it is needle feed with the NBF (needle bar frame) zero tolerance and tight.  With the Quarantine I'm trying to get 20 overhauled Juki 415 needle feed (really nice job of the overhaul by my engineer friend) and 17 pieces of Singer 212u with one piece of Singer 412u (more heavy duty) needle feed double needle machines this way along with 40 plus industrial tables newly acquired pieces.   We have over 50 of these Enduro Pro 800 watt and two 1000 watt servo motors with neodymium and smart sensor (program up or down needle on stop then hit heel on pedal and it goes to opposite for corner turning).  And 5 pieces of Zoje computer high speed that came out of a factory and getting new board/membranes installed. We are incredibly super busy.  Current plan is lower cutting table structure to have a roof top garden as no way for solar panels on that roof being there is a giant old mango tree going up through this structure and it's roof.   

  I'm thinking stitches/seams for projects 😉  The single thread chain stitch might find a nice place in it all.  The 3 step zig zag would be nice on some projects.  We have many Kenmore with C cams that can do it but no puller and just not quite as "industrial" as a real industrial like a 107w with puller.  I'll know soon enough if I am going to be the proud owner and to build a table (like the one in this picture for the Singer 112w139 we have attached). 

  I've also attached a picture of one of the four new old stock 18u322's we have here I have mounted to 29k treadle base (got three out of UK...one was black one was a loud lavender, and one was apple green so we are turning them all black again with antique gold lettering).  18 class are "lefty's" while the 17 class was normal on hand wheel orientation.  In this case I'm just feeding the material backwards and actually like it allot with that feed.  I've been told some industrials can be ordered to feed material the other way.

  Getting off topic as usual but the hat machine and other Willcox and Gibbs are in the cue to come here soon enough.  It will be exciting to get to use my first W&G's.  Pretty soon we will be "stitches are us" able to do the spectrum for different operations.   I'm seriously thinking about this bizarre Singer model 3 but am thinking I've gone down the rabbit hole maybe a little too much.


Singer18u322TreadleStandSpacer.jpg  SingerTableDIY.jpg 

Best regards,
Mike

  Hi again Mavis,  edited to add picture of the first 10 pieces of Juki 415 needle feed overhauled and a second more close up picture.  We can get this original Singer, Juki, and Union Special paint in Manila.  My engineer friend had to make a special long drill bit because the wicking dried solid.  He looked like a dentist giving a root canal to the machines when drilling out the wicking for replacement except I think he got the pain killer instead of the 415's.  He will next do the same to the 212u's and single 412u overhauling them but they are white not grey.  We also recently got a Chinese clone of a Mitsubishi double needle compound fee with big hook and M bobbin same as the Juki 563 compound feed just overhauled (picture of that also attached) and new safety clutch installed.  Once the quarantine lifts we have an additional 50 plus machines coming from Valenzuela north of Manila with tables to add to the already existing capabilities of specialized industrials.  The other stuff in that list includes more cast iron Union Special FOA pedestals (giving us 5 total) with 35800, other various Union Special and Juki machines.  Best regards, Mike   
JukiLU563.jpg  First10Juki415MachinesCompleted.jpg  FirstJuki415Overhaul.jpg

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Mavis

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Reply with quote  #78 
Whew, Mike, I'm exhausted just reading about all you're doing!  Hope those kids like to sew![smile]
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Mavis
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