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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #1 
I have a Brother VX 710 w/no manual and I'm not sure which way the bobbin is supposed to go in the bobbin case.  Is there some secret way to know if the bobbin should turn clockwise or counter-clockwise?  I have tried both ways and honestly it sews the same either way [confused].  I can not get the tension adjusted on this thing no matter what I try.  I have messed w/both the top tension and the bobbin tension to no avail.  The top thread just loops on the bottom.  Actually it did sew correct once for about 3/4 of an inch, lol.  I feel pretty certain the machine is threaded correctly, but the bobbin I'm not sure about.   This machine is pretty neat, light weight and the cover snaps on!

DSCF0876.jpg  DSCF0877.jpg  DSCF0878.jpg 

Any ideas?

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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hello,  If not too hard I recommend cleaning out the upper tension assembly.  I had this problem on other machines where there was some lint or other contaminates causing uneven tension that needed to be cleaned out of the discs.  Sammie taught me when I first got into sewing machines about adjusting the bobbin tension so that when the thread is held the bobbin case will move down a little and then stop after it is lightly jerked.  If your tension is consistent on the bobbin I'd then start looking at the top tension and potentially cleaning it.  Some will take a piece of bond paper and run it between the discs to clean without dis assembling anything.  Best regards, Mike
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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #3 
Hi Mike, thanks for your reply.  I have cleaned the top tensioner and the bobbin case area, no issue there.  It is possible the top tensioner is not put together correctly but it looks right to me.  I tend to feel like it has to do w/the check spring but I'm just not sure.

The other issue is still which way the bobbin goes into the bobbin case.  I can not find a manual on-line unfortunately.  I guess I can try calling Brother and see what they can come up with.
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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #4 
If your Brother VX-710 has a bobbin case with an arm sticking off of it, then it's a class 15. Your bobbins should probably have 10 holes in them. 

On these bobbin cases, the bobbin goes in with the thread coming off the top to the right - the arm of the case pointing to the left as you look into the open bobbin case. When the case is threaded, pull the thread - the bobbin should rotate opposite the direction of the thread pull. 

If your tension knob will unscrew and screw on without any fixed stops, then its just a simple tension and you will need to screw it in more. Ignore those numbers on the tension knob. They are just there for a guide once you get it set. I have several machines with simple tensions like this. It would almost be better if the numbers were not there at all, in my view. The tension works like the old style when it was just a knurled nut. Screw it down until it gives the tension you want. 

As an example, here is a machine I just got recently that has a tension like that. Numbers mean nothing. A plain nut would do.  Universal 700 Deluxe - modified, front.jpg 

-Bruce

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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #5 
The pictures are for the upper threading. I believe that after going through the tension assembly and check spring that it should go directly to the the thread take up lever. It looks like you have that threading from right to left, as it should be. However, it should go directly from the check spring to the lever, not through the thread guide until AFTER going through the take-up lever.

For threading the bobbin, I believe http://www.sewusa.com/Threading_Diagrams/Threading_Pages/Brother_Sewing_Machine_Threading/brother_vx_757_threading_diagram.htm about 3/4 the way down the page is the proper threading of the bobbin case.

Janey

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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #6 
Janey
Thanks for the link.  I think you are correct about the thread going through the thread guild, I think that was an accident on my part.  I will compare my bobbin case to the one in the link and see if I have that correct.  That site has a manual for this machine but I don't want to pay $10 for a $15 machine, lol.  Besides it's a pretty straight forward machine, not a lot of bells and whistles that a manual would be necessary for.

Bruce 
My tension assembly only goes to 4 but it seems to work correctly, I can tell it is tightening and loosening.  1-4 does not leave a whole lot of room for adjustment unfortunately.  OK, I say it seems to work correctly but no matter what I do I just can't get the tension set.  It is always loopy on the bottom.  I have only gotten it to sew correctly once for about 1" worth of stitches!

Thank you everyone, and anyone has any other advise please share.
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samiamaquilter

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Reply with quote  #7 
A very wise and helpful OSMG told me his way to tell which way the bobbin goes in any bobbin case when I first started working on machines when I was a spring chick of 70. It depends on which way the thread slit is slanted. First picture-- On the Kenmore 158.1701, the slit is pointed to the right so the thread tail coming over the top goes to the right. Second picture--On the 15-90 class, the slit is pointed outward to left so the thread tail coming over the top of the bobbin goes  to the left also. I will include pictures because they are so much better than words when describing things. I found this works on 66 bobbin cases as well.

Sammie quilter in NC Bobbin Kenmore 158-1701jpeg.jpeg  bobbin Singer 15-90.jpeg 

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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #8 
Sammie...thank you so much!  This is the trick I was hoping someone would know.  I figured there had to be some way to tell just by looking at the bobbin case which way to thread it.  Now I am going to go look at all my bobbin cases and see if they match up, which I suspect they will, lol.
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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #9 
If your tension has stops, that is to say if it will not turn after reaching the ends of the turn, then it is set and you cannot turn past those settings. This means it's a "fixed" tension range. That also means that it has to be adjusted prior to locking it down with a set screw in the knob assembly. 

I suspect that someone took it apart and put it back together not knowing how to adjust it. lt would need to be disassembled and properly adjusted by taking a piece of thread and putting it in between the tension discs, turning it down all the way, then backing off until the resistance is still felt, but light. That should be the "zero" setting. Turn it all the way down and the thread should be very difficult to pass through. That would be the "4" setting. Find the range that feels right and lock the knob on the zero setting. There might be a little tab inside the knob, so be sure to have it on the right side of any protruding pin or washer with an arm or pin on it. The pin should be to the inside of the "stop" during the knob travel arc thus preventing it from turning past the stop at zero. 

Without being able to examine your tension assembly, this is the best all of us can do is describe tension assemblies we have seen and worked on. Detail photos of your tension assembly would help. 

-Bruce
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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #10 
Ok, maybe I'm dumb - in fact, its a good possibility that I am: But the text says one thing, the pictures say another!
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samiamaquilter

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Reply with quote  #11 
Did I confuse anyone else? Slit to left, thread tail to left, Slit to right, thread tail to right. Sometimes I put things down backwards. Just wish that applied to my birthdays going backwards instead of always forward...:-) Let me know if the text doesn't say what the pictures show. 

Sammie
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Peter

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by samiamaquilter
Did I confuse anyone else? Slit to left, thread tail to left, Slit to right, thread tail to right.


In his article on tension Alex Askaroff says:

"It is not so important which way you put the bobbin into the case. Some find a machine sews better with the bobbin turning one way, some the other, only trial and error points this out for your machine. Loads of people are going to disagree with this, never mind. As a rule I put mine in so that they turn anticlockwise looking at the bobbin."

Peter
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samiamaquilter

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Reply with quote  #13 
Oh, I hope we get some good thoughts on what Askaroff was quoted as saying. I'd love to hear from others on this subject. Most owner's manual show you the way the thread goes when put in the bobbin case so the makers of the machines cared which direction they went. Any engineering fact to prove which is best direction for the bobbin to travel? Try both ways to see if your machine cares. I'm sure there was a good reason for the manual to tell you which was the preferred way. All you guys and gals, try several of your machines both ways and let us know what you found out. Very interesting subject.

Sammie quilter in NC
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hwp

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Reply with quote  #14 
No, Zorba, you're not dumb or maybe we both are because I saw it the same way you did.  

Anyway.  Look at the open edge of the bobbin case itself.  Is the slit cut like  this "\" or like this "/"?

If it's cut like this "\" then it's pointing to the right.  If it's cut like this "/" then it's pointing to the left.

Think of the slashes above as arrows with the head (point) of the arrow at the bottom of the slash.  That gives you the direction that Sammie was pointing out.

Or perhaps according to Alex it doesn't even matter.  LOL.

H.
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #15 
Hello group,

  The tension leaf provides the tension.  The angled slot ensures that the thread will sit down in the slot and not wander out of the right spot.  So as along as the thread has not moved any from it's correct position likely the tension spring is going to do it's job.  On our 29k72 patcher clone I've found the correct direction of the thread very important.  When my wife is sewing on her 201k23 and has a problem she always calls me to look at it.  There has been times when there are tension issues with thread formation and I've found the bobbin in the wrong direciton.  So speaking from experience I can say it matters but likely that is not all the time.  

Best regards,
Mike

edited to add the following:  The Singer model 12 and some other shuttles had a series of holes to adjust tension.  Using more holes provided more tension.  With shuttles I've found thread path to be very important on tension but I also use heavier thread in my shuttles normally.  If the thread is making a 180 degree sharp cut as it reverses direction into the tension leaf this likely will result is an increase in tension or become part of the overall tension.  One might have to adjust the leaf spring screw accordingly but as long as it is the same each time (and the thread does not wander from it's correct position because the slot is no longer doing it's job of keeping the thread in the right spot as it travels in/through the tension spring) then it might work just fine.  Again, I've seen differences and we use all of our machines which is a considerable amount.  
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #16 
One of the first machines I bought was a Singer 66 lotus decal that came out of one of the baltic countries (Latvia if I remember correctly).  Somebody had put a diy leather washer into the tension assembly and it was a mess.  Sammie helped me understand the fundamentals.  One thing was apparent right away and that was the tension release that was supposed to be operating when the presser foot was lifted all the way up was not working.  Have you checked to see if the tension release is working or not?  In my case after I removed the leather washer and re assembled correctly after cleaning (cleaning wasn't the issue in this case but has been in others) I had to take a very small finishing nail and make my own rod for the tension release.   Out of a small container of these tiny nails I only had a couple that were the right diameter and ended up messing up the first attempt and getting it right on the second attempt.  I've seen contaminants mess up my tension assembly when trying to sew with two needles on one of our 401a machines and a good cleaning of the tension discs fixed it.  I think it was Bruce who talked about the use of bond paper between the discs but you already mentioned above that you have cleaned it.  

Best regards,
Mike
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OurWorkbench

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Reply with quote  #17 
I found the Alex post about tension and bobbin threading at http://singerfeatherweight221.blogspot.com/2008/07/featherweight-tension-adjustments-by.html

I have always threaded bobbin cases, so that the bobbin thread makes almost a 180 degree turn to go through the slot. I don't have a Davis VF, but the one James brought to one of the Get-Togethers had a shuttle that the slot is kind of Z shaped. As it turns out, if one threads going by the outside slot it doesn't sew. That is one that needs to go by the direction of the slot after the outside direction.

Janey

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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #18 
Bruce- thank you for that explanation, I will see if I can apply it to my tension assembly.  I will also take some pictures of it for more help.

Mike- I will check out the tension release thing also.

Zorba- I had to study the picture for a few minutes to figure out what Sammie was saying so don't feel bad, lol.

Sammie- this particular machine does seem to sew w/the bobbin threaded either way.  It will be interesting to see if that still holds true when I ever figure out this tension issue.  

Thank you everyone for the help, enjoying the info that is being shared.


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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #19 
Regarding the direction of the thread in the bobbin case, if all else fails consult your manual. If you do not have a manual, look for one or ask for one. Most of the older machines use fairly standard systems that are easy to identify correctly. 

In the case of the class 15 bobbin cases, yes they will sew either way. However, despite what some may say about it making no difference, they are threaded the way they are so as to put a bit of a pre-tension on the thread and stop the bobbin from running riot during fast stops which can loosen the thread wrap in the bobbin and cause tension irregularities. Same can be said regarding systems for keeping the thread flow from the spool even as it enters the tension unit. This is why many later Singer machines from the 500a through the 700 series (all of which are machines I am familiar with) have a type of "pre-tension" on them. I have had times where my lower tension seemed to be erratic and I thought my bobbin was running out of thread, which can cause this, but found I had inadvertently put the bobbin in with the thread flow coming off "naturally" instead of at an angle to form the resistance or pre-tension. 

Generally, the idea of the slot forming a "pointing wedge" to show the direction the thread should go is fine, but I have always used the arm as a guide. If the arm points to the left as you look into the bobbin case, then the thread comes off the top of the bobbin to the right. If the arm is facing to the right, then the thread comes off the bobbin top to the left. Then put it in the slot and pull it into place under the spring and guide. 

Some after-market sellers offer flat coil-like springs to keep bobbins in place and under control in the bobbin case. I had one case that had one of those inserts made of thin clear plastic. 

- Bruce
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mikado_440

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Reply with quote  #20 
Hello,

I own the VX710 Manual, but in french [wink] ! You could download it here : https://drive.google.com/open?id=12SbWIkQBw6Hf2DdBiLCHELXvdUmdY1Qz

But pictures could be sufficient for you, and if you need to translate something, ask I will do my best.


Philippe

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samiamaquilter

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Reply with quote  #21 
So, Bruce, What you are saying is that you might experience "backlash" of the bobbin (where it keeps going when you stop sewing quickly) when making fast stops if the bobbin is put in the opposite way the manual says? Correct me if I am interpreting what you said incorrectly.  Interesting thought.  I don't usually have a heavy foot when I sew because piecing quilts is more about accuracy rather than speed. I'll have to experiment with that concept.
Sammie

However, despite what some may say about it making no difference, they are threaded the way they are so as to put a bit of a pre-tension on the thread and stop the bobbin from running riot during fast stops which can loosen the thread wrap in the bobbin and cause tension irregularities. Bruce
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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #22 
Sammie, that's the concept, at least as I understand it. There was some discussion about bobbin "fling" as someone called it and the use of those anti-"fling" inserts was promoted. Someone also mentioned that is the reason the class 15 industrial bobbins don't have the 10 holes each side, not so much to eliminate thread lint when high speed sewing, but to add weight to the bobbin to prevent the bobbin inertia. I think it's a bit complicated, but the idea of keeping normal thread tension is the biggest reason to have the proper threading according to the manuals. 

Having spool felts is to help reduce spool jerk and "spin off" as I understand it. That's one thing that really bugs me when I sew is having the thread jerk and loop off the spool and be loose, then wrapping around the spool pin under the spool and jam. That's why I like the "pre-tension" thread guides on the Singer 600 and 700 series. The best one I think is the little rising and falling finger on the Singer 500a, arguably the best feature over the Singer 401a. I really like it, but the little tension button or "bridge" (Singer 700s) works well too. I retro-fitted a couple of my Singer 750s with one of those thread guides to get rid of the plain post and hole type mine came with mostly. When one came with the later "bridge" style, where the thread snaps into a hole with a little bridging path to hold the thread steady, there was more even thread feed and a lot of irregular tension and feed problems disappeared. I also like the 3-hole thread guides that some Pfaff and industrial machines use - simple and effective. 

All of these problems seem to have showed up when they stopped making spools out of wood. Those were naturally heavy enough to not have most of these problems. When they went to styrofoam and plastic the spools lost any reasonable weight so now the thread started getting loose all the time. Of course, now most of the thread is cross wound on tubes, so even the old vertical spool pins are a problem unless you have an adapter or wind your thread on old wooden spools. I hate plastic spools. 

-Bruce
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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwp
No, Zorba, you're not dumb or maybe we both are because I saw it the same way you did.  

Anyway.  Look at the open edge of the bobbin case itself.  Is the slit cut like  this "\" or like this "/"?

If it's cut like this "\" then it's pointing to the right.  If it's cut like this "/" then it's pointing to the left.

Think of the slashes above as arrows with the head (point) of the arrow at the bottom of the slash.  That gives you the direction that Sammie was pointing out.

Or perhaps according to Alex it doesn't even matter.  LOL.

H.

"Invert and Telephone".
\ looks like the left to me, / to the right - but I understand now, thanx!

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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #24 
OK, here are some pictures of the tension assembly as I took it apart.  Hopefully in all these pictures someone can point out something that is amiss and help me get this thing figured out.

DSCF0879.jpg  DSCF0881.jpg  DSCF0882.jpg  DSCF0883.jpg  DSCF0884.jpg  DSCF0886.jpg  DSCF0887.jpg  DSCF0888.jpg  DSCF0889.jpg

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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #25 
After seeing the photos, the thing that comes to mind to me is twofold. First, since there is a set screw in the casting to hold the tension assembly in, you should ensure the assembly is seated all the way. That said, it may be possible that the rod that releases the tension is too long. In that case, it would force the tension spring to compress (the pin pushes the center bar in the spring seat washer) which would release tension and cause the top thread to form loops since the tension is not working properly. That can be remedied buy moving the tension assembly further from the body of the machine which would make the tension release pin effectively shorter...or you could shorten the tension release pin.

With the presser bar lift lever down and the foot seated, and the tension assembly seated, there should be play between the lever arm that is raised when the lift lever is up and the release pin. If there isn't, then the pin is pushing against the release washer and it will have to be shortened or the tension assembly moved out until there is a bit of play (gap) between the arm and the pin. So, what needs to be done is check the release pin function and shorten it if need be or reset the tension assembly to provide clearance when in the presser bar down position to allow the tension spring to push the tension discs firmly together. 

-Bruce
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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #26 
hello group,

  I agree on Bruces comments regarding the tension release pin.  Were you ever able to check the release of tension with the presser foot lifted up?

  On the set screw in the casting my experience is that it is a two fold purpose.  First is to hold the assembly into the casting.  Second is to allow it to be shifted in direction to adjust the start/stop points of the check spring.  

Best regards,
Mike
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Deb Milton

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Reply with quote  #27 
Ok, I’m late to the party, but in the very first photo it looks as if the thread is going through the eye of the take up from left to right, which makes it cross.  When I zoomed in that is how it looks to me.  Hope you’ve worked it out.
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samiamaquilter

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Reply with quote  #28 
That was a good call, Deb. Looks like that to me as well. You must have excellent eye sight. Some times it is the simple things that make things mess up. I hope this is all it is.

Sammie quilter in NC
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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #29 
Hi Deb, the thread is going right to left through the take up.  I was not sure when the thread was supposed to go thru that guide so I put it thru there going up to and down from the take up.  If you notice the check spring has the thread pulled way over to the left so it looks like I threaded it left to right, and caused the thread to cross over itself.  I am now only putting the thread thru that guide after the take up, on the way down.  Hope that makes sense.

Bruce- the picture of the pin is w/the presser foot in the up position so should it touch then but not when in the down position?  And how much gap should be there?  I will loosen the set screw and make sure it is seated all the way also.  How do I know if the pin is too long?  I think it will slide back and forth in the post there.  Is it possible to have it too far out also?

Mike- I did check for tension by turning the dial and pulling the thread and it seems to work properly, I also checked the bobbin tension again an it seems fine (I did adjust it a little).  I have no idea why it will not set correctly.  You mentioned the start and stop points for the check spring, could mine need adjusting and would that make a difference?  It seems a bit low to me but I'm not sure what is correct either.


Thanks so much everyone for the help and input!



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ke6cvh

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Reply with quote  #30 

Hello,  I am borrowing this explanation from a post on a different group I belong to where someone gave a good explanation.  I've seen this post before and like it.

"The best explanation I can find of check spring function is from the Navy manual:  The check spring prevents the needle from stabbing into it's own thread by keeping tension on the thread until the needle tip buries into the material.  Just when the needle eye reaches the goods, the check spring should land on it's stop, thereby relieving tension on the thread just as the take up lever begins its down stroke."

  I know in some cases it also assists in thread formation.  I've gotten much better thread formation on my patchers by adjusting it but this might be a different type of take up system all together.  I like to adjust my check springs so they have a healthy amount of spring action.  Not so certain if this helps formation of stitches or not but I am a stickler on proper looking thread formation and am satisfied with good travel of check spring.  I've seen others adjust them to where they are essentially doing nothing and whenever I get a machine like that I always fix that when using it to sew on.  What drives me nuts is sewers that mess with tension on my machines after I've already adjusted it.  A little tweaking by someone who actually knows what they are doing is one thing but these same "offenders" seem perfectly fine with lousy stitches after messing up the tension.  I've heard complaints from people who teach sewing at a local college that the students will mess with tension until it is broken.  I visited a sewing/design acadamy in Manila and when noticing they only had a single old serger in the setup received an answer of essentially the same context where it was explained how much harder it is for the students to mess it up/break it.....I digress sorry

Best regards,
Mike


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Cari-in-Oly

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Reply with quote  #31 
Another thing to remember  - Always thread your machine with the presser foot UP and adjust your upper tension with the presser foot DOWN.

Cari

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JonesHand52

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Reply with quote  #32 
Jennasquiltn - With the presser foot down, the pin in the tension unit should be close to or even touching the lever that pushes it forward when the foot is up, but not tight. There should be play in it. You should see a tiny gap between the pin and the lever with the foot down. Just the thickness of a piece of printer paper would be about ideal. There should be no pressure on the pin in the foot down position. 

-Bruce
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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #33 
I DID IT!  I made the adjustments discussed and still had issues w/tension.  I felt like there was something wrong w/the spring in the tension assembly but figured it was the correct one.  Well, I have a Brother Pacesetter w/a broken gear and decided to take the spring off of it and try it on the VX710 and it worked!  It sews great now.  The spring on the Pacesetter is one of those beehive kind w/the bar across it.  All seems well now so I will leave it at that.  I used the VX710 to repair a place on my son's jacket and it did it w/out a hitch.  So happy to have this thing going, it is such a neat little machine w/it's snap on case.

Thank you again everyone, especially Bruce and Mike, for all your help.
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jennasquiltn

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikado_440
Hello,

I own the VX710 Manual, but in french [wink] ! You could download it here : https://drive.google.com/open?id=12SbWIkQBw6Hf2DdBiLCHELXvdUmdY1Qz

But pictures could be sufficient for you, and if you need to translate something, ask I will do my best.


Philippe


Thank you for this.  I just realized I also have this manual is Spanish, lol.  Now I have 2 and can't read either, lol.  But, the pictures are a great help.
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