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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #1 
Some of you may remember this machine from the "other board".  I've had her a little more than a year.  When I got her, she was frozen solid. 

 
IMG_2184.JPG 

In the past year, we've tried all sorts of chemicals (liquid Wrench, Deep Creep, TriFlow and others I can't recall at the moment. )  I have Kroil on my list for when I go into town next - probably next week now since it snowed again and the roads are a mess.

We've tried heat, we've tried cold. We've leaned her on her back to get oil up the pillar, and at one point, I'm sure I remember her upside down.  We've tapped on the bolt that holds the handwheel with a rubber mallet to introduce vibration. 

I've managed to get far enough that I can get into the back panel, the nose plate comes off and I can move at least one slide plate which let me remove the shuttle.  Most of those parts have been dunked in Evaporust and are fairly good looking but have a date with a dremel and polishing compound in their future.

The old girl herself though - she's pretty adamant that she's not going to free up.  If I jiggle the wheel, I can see movement at both the dogs/shuttle area as well as the needlebar but a jiggle is all I can get out her.

I feel like if I could get the handwheel off, I might get somewhere but she's playing hard to get.

IMG_2188.JPG 

Finally, around September, she came in from the garage still stuck up and I put her back together to avoid losing parts or forgetting where they went.

Anyone have any tips on getting her to turn a stitch again for me?

IMG_2189.JPG 


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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #2 
Sounds like you are on the right troubleshooting path to me...

my approach is to find and remove a middle bit so that i can see which half is stuck.  Frequently one part is SOLID and one part is in agreement with the stuck bit, but not solid on it's own.

On one of my machines that was frozen, I did this and both side were stuck, but since they were no longer supporting each other, the Kroil was able to do in days what with 3 months of every few days treating would not.

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #3 
It figures then that she wouldn't let me take one of the middle pieces off. [smile]

Since I don't have any paint or decals to worry about, I know I have some latitude with chemicals but I just wonder how gentle I have to be with that bolt holding the hand wheel in place?  It's likely better steel than anything I work on these days, right?  Get a good screwdriver and give her a go?  I've been periodically giving her a "bop" on that bolt when I walk by her.  If people could see my daily routines here, they'd think I was nuts. [wink]

I only know of one place that sells Kroil in town and I have to hit it on a weekday as far as I know.  I may try some tranny fluid like in a thread on the QB about unsticking stuck and see if that helps in the meantime.   I'd go into town tomorrow for it but even though we have snow 5 months of the year, it's like every time it snows again, half the population forgets how to drive - gridlock. 

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #4 
a trick we have used it to gently heat the whole assembly and then apply an ice-cube to the bolt itself.  expansion and contraction.

Just as a warning, I have had to make reproductions of two New Home Gold Medal center bolts like that because the previous person twisted the bolt off leaving the threads inside.  A true (not) joy to remove the remains, then measure the threads and dia to make a new one...

Sometimes a gentle tightening can also help free them up a little

Tapping around the perimeter of the bolt like when trying to loosen a mason jar lid can help

The Longest handle screwdriver you can find that fills the slot as much as possible is your best bet.


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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #5 
This might be a candidate for submerging in a vat of diesel for several weeks.

I've never tried it, but have heard of some getting good results from a totally seized machine like this one...

YMMV, at your own risk, etc.

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txmerlin

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Reply with quote  #6 
I know that there is concern about twisting off the head of the screw, but a hand impact driver with a big screw bit might provide the torque and twist you need. You do not need to pound it with a sledge hammer to get it to apply force. I have freed many stuck nuts by using just a medium ball peen and taking time.

Good luck
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SewMachines

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Reply with quote  #7 
I had a Nothmann hc of that style that was frozen tight. Turns out it was frozen underneath where the shuttle frame slides because of the large area of flat metal to flat metal. PB Blaster, heating, cooling, oiling, and a little 'persuasion' from a rubber mallet on the flat metal areas underneath and it finally gave in. Good luck!

Suzanne

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH-VSS
a trick we have used it to gently heat the whole assembly and then apply an ice-cube to the bolt itself.  expansion and contraction.

Just as a warning, I have had to make reproductions of two New Home Gold Medal center bolts like that because the previous person twisted the bolt off leaving the threads inside.  A true (not) joy to remove the remains, then measure the threads and dia to make a new one...

Sometimes a gentle tightening can also help free them up a little

Tapping around the perimeter of the bolt like when trying to loosen a mason jar lid can help

The Longest handle screwdriver you can find that fills the slot as much as possible is your best bet.



I think we've tried most of that but I think I will start again as though she's never seen any attempts at being freed up.  That way, I know that it's been tried for sure.  I know there was a heat gun involved and tapping sides of the bolt and on top of the screwdriver (I showed that trick to the girls this week in my maintenance class.  A screw that couldn't be removed by the one guy in class, came loose for me immediately. [wink])

I will try a gentle tightening and see what screwdrivers I can find around here.  I know there's something in the garage but I want something cleaner in here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba
This might be a candidate for submerging in a vat of diesel for several weeks.

I've never tried it, but have heard of some getting good results from a totally seized machine like this one...

YMMV, at your own risk, etc.


At least there are no decals to hurt here. [smile]   I will see if I think I can safely put something like Diesel somewhere.  It may be atf and acetone though.   I've been so tempted to do it with a tub of evaporust - if it chemically blackens it, it's not all that far from correct either. [wink]

Quote:
Originally Posted by txmerlin
I know that there is concern about twisting off the head of the screw, but a hand impact driver with a big screw bit might provide the torque and twist you need. You do not need to pound it with a sledge hammer to get it to apply force. I have freed many stuck nuts by using just a medium ball peen and taking time. Good luck Ken


I'll see what DH has in the garage. All I've been willing to try up to now is the rubber mallet but of course, if that was working, we wouldn't be having this discussion. [wink]  The only impacts I'm aware of are electric or air powered but I suspect he may stash tools like I do fabric and machines. [wink]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SewMachines
I had a Nothmann hc of that style that was frozen tight. Turns out it was frozen underneath where the shuttle frame slides because of the large area of flat metal to flat metal. PB Blaster, heating, cooling, oiling, and a little 'persuasion' from a rubber mallet on the flat metal areas underneath and it finally gave in. Good luck!

Suzanne


Oh! Thanks for reminding me!  That whole mechanism is freed up.  The set screws were loosened and the whole shuttle carrier and arm moves until I re-tighten the set screws.  That's what I'd initially been hoping too.

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #9 
Alright.  I thought I'd refresh my memory on this - DH was doing the last work on her, other than reassembly before winter. 

I know that the bottom moves relatively freely - the set screws are loose to let that happen. 

The shaft with the arrow moves the same amount as the wiggle room I have (the lash with the gears on the handle) and the blue circle is soaking up triflow as I add it.

I think the problem is the red circle. There's no movement - not even a tiny bit of lash with the gears and visible rust at the bushing.  I tried loosening the one set screw but the head actually tore with barely any torque at all.  I won't be going any further there. 

Here's my plan:
  • Leave the handwheel bolt for now.  Obviously some of this metal is very soft.
  • Let the triflow work for the night.
  • Tomorrow, add some acetone and atf - apply several times over the weekend alternating this with heat off and on. Per this link comparing penetrating oils: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59511
  • If still not free by the end of the weekend, make a trip into the city for Kroil and repeat the process with Kroil.
Thoughts?

IMG_5226[1].jpg


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Reply with quote  #10 
I need to send Wilbur up to your place to baptize that thing with some kind of oil. Then turn it over upside down and let him baptize it again. He's good at discovering places to put the oil. My biggest problem would be to figure out what is supposed to turn and what way it goes. I often have wished for some way to vibrate and turn a machine while I'm off doing something else.
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J Miller

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Reply with quote  #11 
Just a thought, my New Home AB has the same style gear set up.   It was locked up too but once I got into it I found that someone had filled the pillar with needles.    Is there a possibility of a physical obstruction locking up that vertical shaft?

If not, and considering what you've done to it, I'd fire up a propane torch and get some real heat to the locked up area.  Get the metal to expand a bit as you hose it with ATF or diesel.   

Joe

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SteveH-VSS

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Miller
... Get the metal to expand a bit as you hose it with ATF or diesel.   

Joe


Cracked me up!!!  LOL  The visual on that would be YouTube worthy

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miriam
I need to send Wilbur up to your place to baptize that thing with some kind of oil. Then turn it over upside down and let him baptize it again. He's good at discovering places to put the oil. My biggest problem would be to figure out what is supposed to turn and what way it goes. I often have wished for some way to vibrate and turn a machine while I'm off doing something else.


Wilbur (And you!) are welcome up here any time.  Maybe wait for a few months though so you don't freeze all your external bits off!

For this machine, I'm lucky, I have another with a similar build so I can compare what should be moving and shouldn't.  It also helps to loosen certain set screws and set parts of the machine free.  What still doesn't want to turn is stuck. [wink]

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Miller
Just a thought, my New Home AB has the same style gear set up.   It was locked up too but once I got into it I found that someone had filled the pillar with needles.    Is there a possibility of a physical obstruction locking up that vertical shaft?

If not, and considering what you've done to it, I'd fire up a propane torch and get some real heat to the locked up area.  Get the metal to expand a bit as you hose it with ATF or diesel.   

Joe


I don't think there's a physical obstruction.  I can see/feel my way around 270 degrees of the shafts.  If I can't get something in there, chances are good nobody else did either.

I think heat and baptism is going to be order of the day,.. or weekend.  I know that DH used the heat gun on it but I don't know what he was doing at the same time.  If memory serves, I was FP a machine while he was trying to burn my old girl up. [wink]

DH is reluctant to do the diesel route.  He wants to know how we're supposed to store it safely with the machine in it and how to dispose of the used Diesel afterward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH-VSS
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Miller
... Get the metal to expand a bit as you hose it with ATF or diesel.   

Joe


Cracked me up!!!  LOL  The visual on that would be YouTube worthy


That would be one of those videos we'd have to preface with "Don't try this at home.  The demonstrator is highly trained or more likely completely off their rocker..."

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Reply with quote  #14 
Have you tried gently tapping on the bottom of the vertical shaft?  That might help break the rust loose where it's stuck-at least enough for the oil to seep in and finish the job.  A little heat in the area of the red circle won't hurt either.  Maybe a heat gun or hair dryer instead of open flame?
Neat machine!  I love the old hand cranks with cast iron bases.  I haven't been lucky enough to get one yet though.
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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #15 
I definitely tapped on the bottom of the shaft last night before I put her on the shelf.  Still no joy this morning. I didn't expect it this fast though.  I will brave the garage momentarily here and see if I can find the acetone and the ATF.  DH said we had both.  I know where the heat gun is in there. Worst case, I think there's acetone in the bathroom somewhere. 

This old girl suckered me in with her toes and that big handwheel. [wink]  There wasn't really an option of me not adopting her once I saw that.

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J Miller

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Reply with quote  #16 
Tammi,

Some time back I read that if you prepair a 50-50 mix of Acetone and ATF it makes a really good penetrating oil.   I did this to the spare tire rack latch on my Pathfinder.  It worked.    Might be an experiment to try.

Joe

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #17 
This is the atf and acetone I've been babbling about (Posts 3, 8 ,9 15.... [wink]) .  So far, I've managed to distract myself completely from going out to the garage today though.  Not sure why.

OK, I'll go right now.  It's on my mind, I'm somewhat committed if nothing else than by virtue of starting this thread.

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #18 
NNnuuughhhhh!  
Now I know why I was procrastinating!!

I HATE the smell of ATF!  *gag*  Ever since spilling a whole bottle of it on my head trying to fill a tranny that was on a hoist above me.

I sure hope this works because then it will be worth it.

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #19 
Alright. I'm posting this for posterity.

NO open flame with acetone!!  <- If I could make that flash, I would!

Even a heat gun makes the stuff smoke something fierce.  And makes the ATF stink even worse.

On the upside, I may be seeing some percolation at the bushing area.  Or else it's boiling from the heat from the gun. [wink]

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Reply with quote  #20 
Have you tried Marvel Mystery oil? I use that on my Model A all the time.

Ken

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #21 
I haven't yet no.  Like Kroil, it appears to be one of those "hard to find in Canada" products.  In many ways, though we're a developed country, you'd never know it sometimes when it comes to availability of products!

I'll see how the ATF and acetone goes for the weekend then call around on Tuesday (long weekend for some on Monday) and see what I can find.  Hopefully, neither the Kroil or MMO are needed by then!

Update: DH thinks it might be a little bit of percolation too.  <insert dancing penguin here!> [wink]

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Zorba

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchaicArcane
Ever since spilling a whole bottle of it on my head trying to fill a tranny that was on a hoist above me.

Snort! That's why the only auto trans car I own - somebody else changes the ATF. Every time I've ever done it, I've ended up totally soaked in the stuff. Nasty, messy job - and it wouldn't have to be that way if auto makers put drain plugs and an external filter on them! That's OK, I don't like automatics anyway!

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #23 
Worst part about that story? It was a manual transmission but the shops I called said I could try using ATF instead because up here in the frozen tundra when it hits -30C, pulling the car out of gear and leaving it in neutral to warm up didn't guarantee it wouldn't still try to drive down the road anyway.  Originally, the tranny was filled with gear oil but when I was changing the clutch myself (because I was younger/stupider/stronger/broker) I asked about it and they said ATF would be easier on the syncros anyway.

So the car was on the hoist, the clutch done but the tranny had been out and drained and I needed to refill it. Borg Warner T5s usually have their filler hole in a craptastic spot especially on a firebird and so I had to rig a hose and had wedged the bottle in just right that it was draining well.  Then the hose popped out of the filler hole.  I was trying to get the hose and grabbing at that loosed the hose from the bottle which I couldn't quite reach.... 

Even after tons of washing with every combination of degreasers etc, one side of my head was matted with ATF and the other half was completely frizzy thanks to all of the natural oils being stripped out.  This is with waist long hair too. I had a Christmas party to attend that night and people could still smell the ATF on me.  I looked like I was wearing a Tina Turner wig for days.

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J Miller

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Reply with quote  #24 
I agree about ATF being a foul smelling brew, but what's worse is anti-freeze.   YUCK!   I've been covered with all of them, and hate them all.   But I still have to do my own maintenance due to not being flush with cash.

I should have elaborated about the heat and ATF.   My apologies.    When I was using that combo on the stuck Wizard I'd heat the metal, set the torch away then hose it with ATF/Acetone.    Smoke, stink, putrid acrid gagging stench, but it finally worked.

And yes you don't get flame near acetone, it's very flammable.     [eek]

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ArchaicArcane

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Reply with quote  #25 
It's OK.  I made sure I checked the labels before I got too enthusiastic anyway. [smile]

Yeah, I agree - the only way to make acetone and ATF smell worse is to heat it.    

Today's progress:
Uh,.. none.
She's marinating some more.  We picked up some new picks and a bigger slot screwdriver.  Hopefully we'll see some movement with use of those tools tomorrow.

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